Was Alsace-Lorraine really that important?

Landtags election, October 22nd, 1911
Zentrum 31%, SPD 23,8%, Elsaß-Lothringer 16,3%, Liberal Demokraten 15,9%, etc.

Given the French laws of expulsion in 1919, 120.000 German "colonists" (administrators rather) would seem more likely than your 400.000, this about matches the exodus of French administrators.

Saying that Alsatian is unlike German is saying that the Baden dialect (next thing to Alsatian) is unlike German. Im aware that linguists nowaday recognize dialects as languages. Nevertheless Baden and Alsatian are dialects of German. I can understand Alsatians speaking their dialect as easily (or as hardly) as their Baden neighbours.
 
Comparing the different Wikipedias is interesting:

The de. one has 100.000 retaining their French citizenship and moving to France after 1871 and 300.000 Germans expelled after WW I.

The en. one uses both 100.000 and 100.000 to 130.000 leaving after 1871 and gives no numbers on Germans expelled after WW I.

The fr. one has 100.000 leaving after 1871 and 112.000 (likely the above-mentioned administrators) and 200.000 expelled after WW I. Caveat: My French is very rusty.

It is amazing how German propagandist control all Wikipedias;I thought that only the Poles were able to do this. Nobody claims 600.000.
 

MrP

Banned
Comparing the different Wikipedias is interesting:

The de. one has 100.000 retaining their French citizenship and moving to France after 1871 and 300.000 Germans expelled after WW I.

The en. one uses both 100.000 and 100.000 to 130.000 leaving after 1871 and gives no numbers on Germans expelled after WW I.

The fr. one has 100.000 leaving after 1871 and 112.000 (likely the above-mentioned administrators) and 200.000 expelled after WW I. Caveat: My French is very rusty.

It is amazing how German propagandist control all Wikipedias;I thought that only the Poles were able to do this. Nobody claims 600.000.

Not to get involved in the argument (I'm British! The last time we got involved in a row between France and Germany over A-L, it all went very badly!), but there seems a difference in phrasing. The figures you give seem to cover solely a movement to France (possibly just continental France), whereas fhaessig's figures seem to cover total migration, both to France and to other countries. I'm not making a point in support of either set of figures. I'm merely pointing out that there seems to be a discrepancy that could be associated with the numerical disparity.
 
Saying that Alsatian is unlike German is saying that the Baden dialect (next thing to Alsatian) is unlike German. Im aware that linguists nowaday recognize dialects as languages. Nevertheless Baden and Alsatian are dialects of German. I can understand Alsatians speaking their dialect as easily (or as hardly) as their Baden neighbours.
It's the German dialect continuum thingy. Alsatian is a Germanic (Susano, I chose that word for a reason...) dialect that is rather clearly of the same language as the German dialect over the border... but due to the continuum thing, it is not 'clearly the same language as German' (mutual intellegibility, and that)! Had it remained in Germany, it is rather likely that it would have been connected into the process, and become speakers of Hochdeutsch and their own dialect, but they didn't remain in Germany.
Sort of like Dutch, altough without the state support (that is, being their own state).
 
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And now perfidious Albion starts supporting their French ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h I welcome any input from our valued British allies.

Alsatians opting for France (including its colonies) can be seen as victims of the German occupation - like to the ones expelled after 1918.

But people all over Europe were emigrating to the US at the time. Labeling anybody who left A-L for the US as victims of German oppression seems somewhat fishy.

Assuming that both numbers are correct:Why should 5 out of 6 French patriots settle outside of France and its colonies?

I could quote the 1900 census numbers, but these statistic were done by Germans ...
 
Just checked it in Wahl-Richez "L'Alsace entre France et Allemagne" Hachette, Paris 1993.
Number of optants for France 1871/72: 132 239 in A-L. They give no exact number but state that the number of those that actually emmigrated was much smaller than the number of optants.
There are higher numbers in orbit because France also caused those living in France but having A-L roots to opt.

The language thing is that while Dutch is only easily understandable to Germans if spoken very, very slowly, Alsatian - even - today if fully compatible with the Baden dialect on the other side of the Rhine, and this is understood without problems by all southern Germans. - Almost all Germans are "bilingual" speaking high German and their local dialect.
 

MrP

Banned
And now perfidious Albion starts supporting their French ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h I welcome any input from our valued British allies.

We're evil like that. I'm really Henry Wilson in disguise! :D

Alsatians opting for France (including its colonies) can be seen as victims of the German occupation - like to the ones expelled after 1918.

But people all over Europe were emigrating to the US at the time. Labeling anybody who left A-L for the US as victims of German oppression seems somewhat fishy.

Assuming that both numbers are correct:Why should 5 out of 6 French patriots settle outside of France and its colonies?

I could quote the 1900 census numbers, but these statistic were done by Germans ...

It's weird, isn't it? I wonder if there are comparable figures for Spanish or British migration during the period. They could serve as a handy comparison.
 
Wasn't Alsace-Lorraine a industrial area of importance back then?

Also to the person who thought that eventually the German Government would have gone soft and handed it back. I would like to add that The British government to this day still holds Gibraltar and it would have been expected to have been returned at some point.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
It's weird, isn't it? I wonder if there are comparable figures for Spanish or British migration during the period. They could serve as a handy comparison.

I think it would be better to look at Swiss and South Geman migration in the same periode, they're the closes in enviorement and culture.
 
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Emmigration to the US and South America from all over Germany was high all through the 1870ies and 1880ies, it only grew less with the improving economic situation of the 1890ies. By 1905 it had come down to mere trickle, while Germany was now importing labour from abroad. This can also be found in A-L: A growing number of Italians and Poles.
If you look to eastern France, they also were experiencing a reduction of population in the same time period.
 
Wasn't Alsace-Lorraine a industrial area of importance back then?

fairly important at the time, as well as its strategic position.


Also to the person who thought that eventually the German Government would have gone soft and handed it back. I would like to add that The British government to this day still holds Gibraltar and it would have been expected to have been returned at some point.

If your arguing that A-L shouldn't be handed back to France because the population wanted to stay in Germany. The reason why Gibraltar is still British is the same as why Ulster is, because the majority of the population wants to stay that way. [A bit different in Ulster admittedly because a sizeable minority what to transfer to Eire and unfortunately many of them were opposed to a democratic solution. In Gibraltar the population is ~95%+ in favour of staying with Britain.]

Steve
 
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