Was Al-Andalus hopeless?

Claims aren't a laughing matter, they're vastly important to how the nobility will view the legitimacy of someone to the throne. And thats important.

Especially when the only way one is getting an army is with their support, or a lot of money, and ideally both.

This isn't Sword and Sorcery where thrones are to whoever has a mighty sword arm, and even Conan had to have the former.
 
Al Andalus

It depends. A really strong push after the battle of Alarcos would have possibly changed things. Then a Muslim reconquest of Toledo would have been relatively easy.
 

Dirk_Pitt

Banned
Especially when the only way one is getting an army is with their support, or a lot of money, and ideally both.

This isn't Sword and Sorcery where thrones are to whoever has a mighty sword arm, and even Conan had to have the former.

Someone should totally do an ASB TL where Conan get's ISOTed to 11th century Iberia...
 
This isn't Sword and Sorcery where thrones are to whoever has a mighty sword arm, and even Conan had to have the former.
Much much less important on the Muslim side. Military skills + powerbase is the origin of many an Islamic medieval ruler.
 
Much much less important on the Muslim side. Military skills + powerbase is the origin of many an Islamic medieval ruler.

Not to mention even Paramilitary power in modern times. And military coups. And so forth. Legitimacy comes from many sources, blood, divine will, money, and the gun. History is full of Kings and Emperors who crowned themselves on the basis of their military might. The Romans being a prime example of this.

El CID could have been a Castillian Abd ar Raham.
 
Much much less important on the Muslim side. Military skills + powerbase is the origin of many an Islamic medieval ruler.

Certainly.

But acquiring a power base requires something other than being a badass independent of any believable (or believed) position.


King of Malta: I like how you ignore the arguments that the support of the nobility is important by making vague references to history being "full of" rulers who won by sheer military might.

It really indicates you're interested in discussing this.
 
Now now Elfwine lets not get to bashing. Though I suppose I should not have presumed you would not realize that I am presuming El CID Marry into Taifa nobility or that a military ruler could certainly create new nobility after deposing of the old nobility or that the nobility would unanimously throw themselves on their swords rater then work with a pretender.
 
Now now Elfwine lets not get to bashing. Though I suppose I should not have presumed you would not realize that I am presuming El CID Marry into Taifa nobility or that a military ruler could certainly create new nobility after deposing of the old nobility or that the nobility would unanimously throw themselves on their swords rater then work with a pretender.

It's not bashing, just sarcasm.

And the old nobility has no reason not just, y'know, rebel. And in this era, that robs him of most of the realm's military strength.

No need to throw themselves on their swords, just refuse to grant him theirs.

Deposing the old nobility requires him being able to command forces loyal to him - from what? This isn't the 20th century, so making references to military coups in that era is no help.

And lastly marrying into Taifa nobility doesn't turn him into someone with a legitimate claim.

A pretender with no basis, or at least accepted basis, for his ambitions is a pretender likely to be without supporters.

And you're not making any effort to address that.
 
Let us see.

I am by no means an expert on this time period but looking through abit about this period and El CID before we consider possible PODs one must consider the time and place.

Iberia is split between various Christian and Islamic Powers that in most cases it seemed had not much problem allying with one another to capture territory or install a more favorable leader.

El Cid in the OTL. He certainly was very capable of a leader and seemed to be a schemer having no problems at all commanding Christian and Islamic elements. As an aristocrat he served the Castilian crown and was on several occasions noted for his efforts in battle. He was by no means a loner and seemed to have been involved with other nobles in forcing Alfonso to swear in public that he had not murdered his father.

Possible PODs?

Well, for a man such as El Cid they can range from many periods of his life: Pre-Exile, Post-Exile and such and may not even be centered on him but, be the result of something else happening. Perhaps he makes a more powerful a aristocratic friend who supports El Cid in court or he becomes buddy buddy with Alfonso leading to a Power behind the throne situation. Perhaps the Nobles rebel against Alfonso when information regarding his efforts in the assassination of family occurs leading to El Cid being a leading figure. Perhaps Alfonso dies at a period after El Cid's exile and El Cid returns to support some player or he nominates himself.

To name a few. Though, as I said I am by no means an expert of this period so as to any question of Who would support him or join him or he would join or support I am not sure but, given politics of this era it seems their would be many would be people who could have risen out of obscurity.
 
Rising out of obscurity and taking a throne are two different things.

Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar in some timeline is an obscure figure, after all.
 
Rising out of obscurity and taking a throne are two different things.

Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar in some timeline is an obscure figure, after all.

And he created his own Christian/Islamic Kingdom of Valencia.

I mean't that I do not have a detailed list of Christian Spain's Nobility, who they were and their level of power and resources and if they were inclined to do one thing or another. Too bad they did not have gossip magazines back then otherwise it would be easier to find out who 'is rumored to be plotting to seize control'.
 
It would not have been too difficult to extinguish the Christian states altogether in the Eighth Century.

Subsequent enforced population transfers could put the Christian population in locations where it couldn't pose a strong threat to revolt or join forces with outside invaders.
 
Top