Was A Russified Mongol Horde Possible?

Was there ever the possibility of an Orthodox Christianized Mongol leader spinning off the Rus into his own ulus, forming what amounts to a Russifying Mongol Horde, separate of the Volga Muslims?

What would this state look like -- the OTL Tsardom, or something entirely different?

Calling @RGB / any other Russia or Mongols experts
 
Once Rus was resurgent, there were some communities that converted, individuals that converted, and many that served the princes of Moscow (without converting). And there were always lots of Russians and Christians in the Golden Horde (mostly as lower class labourers and such) and the Moscow Metropolitan had permission to open new churches in Sarai and such. That said, it's a huge challenge. The valuable trade routes lay south towards the Muslim world. The administrative classes were mostly Muslim too. Lots of Steppe Turcs absorbed into the Mongols were already Muslim. It seems like a natural progression.

That said, getting rid of Berke somehow and then praying for the right outcome seems like a good place to start. At the very least, getting rid of Uzbek-khan is a must.

It's an even bigger challenge to have both "Russified" Tatars and Volga Muslims at the same time. Maybe not impossible, but hard. So what you suggest is probably a good idea: a Horde very directly dependent on Rus for manpower and wealth, more so than OTL. Don't know how to create it most elegantly, though. A more direct conquest of Zalesye? A clear victory for Hulegu in his war with Berke (so early displacement of the Jochids from the lower Volga and north, maybe?)
 
Since this TTL alters the conquests outright (initial POD butterflies the fall of the Komnenoi), I was thinking that the Rus would be separate from Saray entirely, as separate uluses -- with the conquered part of Rus acting as a forward base for striking into Bohemia and Pomerania, along with administering (via tributaries/puppets) a shattered Poland and maybe the Baltic tribes. (I'm trying to have the Cumans outright conquer Pannonia as the last great "steppe replacement" of the era, before acting as separate raiders themselves).

But that idea also works -- more of Russia conquered (Smolensk and Zalesye, perhaps) and Berke or alt-Berke losing outright.
 
Since this TTL alters the conquests outright (initial POD butterflies the fall of the Komnenoi), I was thinking that the Rus would be separate from Saray entirely, as separate uluses -- with the conquered part of Rus acting as a forward base for striking into Bohemia and Pomerania, along with administering (via tributaries/puppets) a shattered Poland and maybe the Baltic tribes. (I'm trying to have the Cumans outright conquer Pannonia as the last great "steppe replacement" of the era, before acting as separate raiders themselves).

But that idea also works -- more of Russia conquered (Smolensk and Zalesye, perhaps) and Berke or alt-Berke losing outright.

Hm. The problem is, it's bad pasture because it's swampy and forested, otherwise they'd probably have tried settling it. Maybe have the "centre" somewhere farther west (so like Dniepr Ukraine maybe?) with Poland and (Northern) Rus as the equivalent of a Southern China?

Having the Cumans further west is a great idea: they'd likely be tempted to convert to Christianity anyway (and were on their way in the 13th c. given their involved diplomacy with several Christian states), and that would give your alt-Mongols a steppe people to recruit cavalry from (Russians and Hungarians had good cavalry but it wasn't proper Steppe style, of course).

So in a way it would be a direct continuation/rebuilding of a Kievan state, the way you plan it. It wouldn't stay nomadic for very long, the population would be majority Slavic or Cuman, and it would likely become Christian. It doesn't strike me as impossible, this way, especially if the *Ilkhanids are keeping the *Ukrainian Horde away from the Muslim trade.
 
So a Mongol state, based in Kiev or Volhynia-Halych, controlling in various ways Northern Rus, Poland, the Baltics and Cumania (formerly known as Hungary), and converting to I presume Orthodoxy?

Would the state structure be any different? If the Kievan Horde collapsed eventually, would Russia still be able to unify? Would there be any differences culture/state/economy wise for the Rus, or would the Mongols just outright Russify?
 
So a Mongol state, based in Kiev or Volhynia-Halych, controlling in various ways Northern Rus, Poland, the Baltics and Cumania (formerly known as Hungary), and converting to I presume Orthodoxy?

Would the state structure be any different? If the Kievan Horde collapsed eventually, would Russia still be able to unify? Would there be any differences culture/state/economy wise for the Rus, or would the Mongols just outright Russify?

Well, they might go Orthodox but I imagine that in Mongol fashion, early years would be open to various religions. Catholics, Orthodox (actually a valuable tool to ally with the Byzantines against say, Ilkhans or whoever) and Muslims would probably interpenetrate a lot more than OTL. The postal and tribute system I imagine would be largely the same.

Not sure how stable the Khanate would be while it lasts, but after it's gone...I mean, Lithuania moved into the vacuum OTL, and it wasn't particularly stable but neither was it ungovernable. No Vladmir/Moscow patriarchate for sure. But the succession rules would be flexible and that would invite all sorts of trouble.

Horse archer nobles and gentry might spread wider than OTL, but the kind of land-for-service system that the OTL Moscow had might never even arise and you'd get a clumsy tribal feudalism throughout the *Ukraine Horde's history.

Jewish settlement would also be a big interesting butterfly moment. The entire Pale is within the Horde ITTL. Depending on how long the Horde lasts, it could either butterfly the settlement away, or alter it in some other fashion.

Would the Mongols invite German and Czech settlers and craftsmen? Also a big question. Really changes how Romania looks, for example, and how Ukraine and Poland look, depending on the outcome.
 
The Jewish settlement would IMO depend on Germany and on whether or not Poland enacts the tolerant Statute of Kalisz, which encouraged a great deal of Jews to move into Poland...

What do you mean by tribal feudalism, btw? What was the land-for-service system? Also, if another Rus state moves into the gap after hte fall of the Kievan Horde, would a state essentially similar to the Russian tsardom be created, or would we see something more decentralized?
 
The Jewish settlement would IMO depend on Germany and on whether or not Poland enacts the tolerant Statute of Kalisz, which encouraged a great deal of Jews to move into Poland...

What do you mean by tribal feudalism, btw? What was the land-for-service system? Also, if another Rus state moves into the gap after hte fall of the Kievan Horde, would a state essentially similar to the Russian tsardom be created, or would we see something more decentralized?

The Mongol Empire wasn't meant to be decentralized (even after the fall of the Yuan) but there was often no choice because of how weak the state was and how often the civil wars happened.

Land-for-service: Russia's fighting gentry had a similar deal to say, the Ottoman timars. The Mongols never had anything similar.

Tribal feudalism: you might class it under "decentralization" - literally the nobles of various areas (so in this case, minor hordes or cities) raising their own militias to bring them to the service of the state, as opposed to the state organizing the military service of the privileged classes.

Tsardom: how close are the Byzantine contacts, anyway? That's the other big factor.
 
Byzantine contacts will be huge -- the initial POD is a surviving Komnenoi dynasty (Manuel dies, but Alexios (II) dies before he does, allowing Andronikos I to move in swiftly and take control). The Byzantines will make big progress against the Seljuks, and I imagine they'll be a crucial ally against the Ilkhans.
 
Didn't see the edit -- how would alternate German/Czech settlement patterns affect the wider region?

German towns all over Romania/Moldavia and Slovakia. Madgeburg rights that came along with German settlers petitioning their kings. That kind of thing. No Saxons and possibly no Hussites, depending on how long this lasts.

Granted, it's quite a few generations away from your PoD.
 
German towns all over Romania/Moldavia and Slovakia. Madgeburg rights that came along with German settlers petitioning their kings. That kind of thing. No Saxons and possibly no Hussites, depending on how long this lasts.

Granted, it's quite a few generations away from your PoD.

Ah, so the Mongols cold either redirect German settlement towards Russia and therefore out of Pannonia/Poland, or keep the Germans out? Would the Mongols prevent the creation of the Siebenburgen (seems out of character)
 
Was there ever the possibility of an Orthodox Christianized Mongol leader spinning off the Rus into his own ulus, forming what amounts to a Russifying Mongol Horde, separate of the Volga Muslims?

What would this state look like -- the OTL Tsardom, or something entirely different?

A Tsardom like OTL is out of the question due to how Muscovy in particular formed, and I'd doubt a Mongolian Tsar even Russified and Orthodox, would see Byzantium and it's legacy as something to emulate. In fact, if I remember correctly members of the House of Borjigin were considered important in their right as Tsarevechi, so I believe that a Mongol ruler would play on his own heritage related to Genghis Khan than Byzantium.There is Tsar Chaka of Bulgaria as an example of a Mongol ruling a non-Ulus state, that could be used to help get a scenario for a possible TL.

As for how it happens what's the POD of your timeline, depending on when it might be, it's the Golden Horde doesn't convert to Islam or in the many struggles for succession it becomes polarized through religious lines. Maybe a Tsarevechi gets invited to become a prince, I think something might be doable with Halych-Volhinya, if the time was right it was ruled by Coloman of the House of Arpad, maybe a Borjigin could take his lands? Although RGB would presumably know better than I if it was possible.
 
No, you make a good point about whose Imperial style they might emulate, and which part of the Byzantine style might get adopted. They might keep the "khaganate" title instead, for example (or a "Tsar and Khagan" style). Bulgaria is a pretty good example as they ended up getting a Cuman-derived dynasty in the Asens as well as having Chaka rule for a while, but stayed Byzantine. Then again Galicia or Kiev are further away.
 
After the Mongol state falls, though, they'll still have the Byzantine model and Byzantine culture to emulate, especially if another Rus state fills the void. Would be neat to bring back the Rus Khaganate. Khagan and Autocrat of all the Russias!

The imperial symbolism though could be completely different -- more horse imagery, less double-eagles. Maybe a cross rather than a tamgha...
 
A Russified Mongol Horde is certainly possible seeing as there was an Orthodox Christian khan - Sartaq Khan, to be precise. (And Rus being one of the first countries they collide with, well, if they stay there long enough..)
 
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