Was a Cold War possible with Victorious Nazis?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
  • Start date
Iraqi, Iranians, Indians nor Japanese scream Aryan to me...

Why not? Persians and many northern Indian peoples speak Indo-European languages and are fairly light-skinned. Hell, Iran means "Land of the Aryans". Seems like they should be able to go along with the National Socialist ideology fairly well. Hell, Persian Nazis might try to 'cleanse' Iran of the Turks and Arabs who also live there or something along those lines.

Iraqis and Japanese don't make sense, but as the OTL alliance with Japan showed, the Nazis were not completely unwilling to work with their 'racial inferiors' when it was convenient and did not interfere with their plans.
 

Deleted member 1487

Why not? Persians and many northern Indian peoples speak Indo-European languages and are fairly light-skinned. Hell, Iran means "Land of the Aryans". Seems like they should be able to go along with the National Socialist ideology fairly well. Hell, Persian Nazis might try to 'cleanse' Iran of the Turks and Arabs who also live there or something along those lines.
They actually worked with the Nazis IOTL until the British occupation of the country in 1941 along with the Soviets.

Iraqis and Japanese don't make sense, but as the OTL alliance with Japan showed, the Nazis were not completely unwilling to work with their 'racial inferiors' when it was convenient and did not interfere with their plans.
The Japanese became racial Aryans officially because of their 'pure blood':
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_Aryan#To_the_Chinese_.26_Japanese
While only certain Jewish individuals were granted the status, the term was ascribed to the entire Japanese people. Adolf Hitler bestowed the title upon the Japanese following the Anti-Comintern Pact on Communism (signed in 1936), and it seemed that they were granted the status not simply for economic, military, or political reasons, but more so because of their racial integrity. In The Political Testament of Adolf Hitler, Hitler stated,
Pride in one's own race – and that does not imply contempt for other races – is also a normal and healthy sentiment. I have never regarded the Chinese or the Japanese as being inferior to ourselves. They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their past history is superior to our own. They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them.[5]
Hitler had supported Japan as early as 1904, when during the Russo-Japanese War it had defeated the Russians, which he considered a defeat for Austrian Slavism.[6][7] He made a number of other statements expressing his respect and admiration for the Japanese in his book Mein Kampf.[8][9]


Although of a different race, the Japanese were considered by Nazi ideologists such as Himmler as having similar enough qualities with German-Nordic blood to warrant an alliance. Himmler, who possessed a great interest in, and was influenced by, the anthropology, philosophies and pantheistic religions of East Asia, mentioned how his friend Hiroshi Ōshima, the Japanese Ambassador to Germany, believed that the noble castes in Japan, the Daimyo and the Samurai, were descended from gods of celestial origin, which was similar to Himmler's own belief that "the Nordic race did not evolve, but came directly down from heaven to settle on the Atlantic continent."[10]
It wasn't like the Japanese didn't have their own racist ideology either and that appealed to the Nazis.

Places like Iran had the Aryan links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany–Iran_relations#The_first_Pahlavi_era_and_Nazi_Germany
Iran even changed its official name from Persia to court the Nazis.

India too had some racial/racists connection via the Aryan thing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Racial_theories_and_antisemitism
The concept of the Aryan race, which the Nazis promoted, stems from racial theories asserting that Europeans are the descendants of Indo-Iranian settlers, people of ancient India and ancient Persia.[48] Proponents of this theory based their assertion on the similarity of European words and their meaning to those of Indo-Iranian languages.[48] Johann Gottfried Herder argued that the Germanic peoples held close racial connections with the ancient Indians and ancient Persians, who he claimed were advanced peoples possessing a great capacity for wisdom, nobility, restraint, and science.[48] Contemporaries of Herder used the concept of the Aryan race to draw a distinction between what they deemed "high and noble" Aryan culture versus that of "parasitic" Semitic culture.[48]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany–India_relations#History
 
The problem was that the whole internal system of Nazi Germany was set up in a state of permanent imbalance. The whole system was built around Hitler as a person, all power stemmed from his favour, and contrary to Stalin (whose governing style was similar, but whose personality and strategic outlook was emphatically not) it would collapse like a house of cards the moment Hitler were incapacitated for more than a few days. The result of Nazis victorious in 1944 would be a civil war in 1945. Depending on who wins, the SS/Himmler fraction would result in even more crazyness but probably would not be able to muster any popular support at all, so looking at resitance within Germany pickng up massively (you can only shoot and imprison and torture so many people if they don't buy your mystical crap); or, alternatively, the army/Goering fraction who would most probably be able to wind down the conflict with the West (for reasons of self-preservation if nothing else), muster more popular support within Germany and in the end probably result in a more or less stable Cold War-like situation. Most probably the idea of "Lebensraum", at least beyond a part of Poland, would be abandoned (hardly any Germans OTL wanted to move from Cologne or Berlin to some new agricultural settlement in the middle of nowhere thousands of km away if they could avoid it), and the occupied parts of Russia would become a brutally oppressed ressource extraction colony akin to Great Powers African colonies OTL.
 
The problem was that the whole internal system of Nazi Germany was set up in a state of permanent imbalance. The whole system was built around Hitler as a person, all power stemmed from his favour, and contrary to Stalin (whose governing style was similar, but whose personality and strategic outlook was emphatically not) it would collapse like a house of cards the moment Hitler were incapacitated for more than a few days. The result of Nazis victorious in 1944 would be a civil war in 1945. Depending on who wins, the SS/Himmler fraction would result in even more crazyness but probably would not be able to muster any popular support at all, so looking at resitance within Germany pickng up massively (you can only shoot and imprison and torture so many people if they don't buy your mystical crap); or, alternatively, the army/Goering fraction who would most probably be able to wind down the conflict with the West (for reasons of self-preservation if nothing else), muster more popular support within Germany and in the end probably result in a more or less stable Cold War-like situation. Most probably the idea of "Lebensraum", at least beyond a part of Poland, would be abandoned (hardly any Germans OTL wanted to move from Cologne or Berlin to some new agricultural settlement in the middle of nowhere thousands of km away if they could avoid it), and the occupied parts of Russia would become a brutally oppressed ressource extraction colony akin to Great Powers African colonies OTL.

Would it really be Goering that would be in charge if the army faction won?
 
Would it really be Goering that would be in charge if the army faction won?

Not sure, but Goering would probably sit out most of it in a drug- and booze-induced haze and jump in at the last moment to claim it has been all his work. If the army fraction were led by the old guard (Witzleben &Co) he would be thrown out on his ear or just shot; if the younger generation of the generals, more Nazi-attuned, were leading the army fraction I could imagine them accepting the Fatso at least as a figurehead.
 

Deleted member 1487

Not sure, but Goering would probably sit out most of it in a drug- and booze-induced haze and jump in at the last moment to claim it has been all his work. If the army fraction were led by the old guard (Witzleben &Co) he would be thrown out on his ear or just shot; if the younger generation of the generals, more Nazi-attuned, were leading the army fraction I could imagine them accepting the Fatso at least as a figurehead.
Goering was far more with it and definitely interested in defending his turf. In 1942 Speer's account of Goering shows a man very much aware and active in the political landscape of Nazi Germany and that didn't change even by 1945 when he tried to usurp Hitler's power and got an arrest warrant put out for him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6ring_Telegram

It was pretty clear that Goering would be Hitler's heir as that was made explicitly clear in 1941. Without losing face in 1940-45 in the defeats of the LW and with the mismanagement of the economy, Goering would never lose his place as unambiguous heir to Hitler. He'd pull out Hitler's decree immediately on Hitler's death and be the only viable heir, as Himmler understood he could not rule. Heydrich might be a dangerous rival that would eventually replace Himmler, but politically it would be impossible for any Nazi to take out Goering acting out Hitler's order. The army might go at him, but the SS would not.
 
I don't think the Germans would export it as such, rather people would see it as powerful and adopt elements of the ideology to their local context and court Germany for aid and trade, probably trying to play off the US and Germany to get the best deal or something from both. Some are naturally biased to Germany over the US due to the US probably working with Britain to have influence abroad, because the US pretty much had to piggy back on British bases and networks after WW2 due to isolationism keeping them out of the foreign influence game pre-WW2. India and Iran both favored Germany over Britain due to colonialism and Germany being so far away it couldn't replace Britain in their countries. They did try to appeal to the US during the war, but the US was too invested in Britain to listen, which ended up being a major problem in the 1950s in Iran, India, and Indochina.

The problem is that germany would be in weak position to export its influence. War damage, incorporation of conquered territory, mopping up etc. All of this would compete for whatever resources Germany would have. And nowing Hitler he'd prioritise things closer to home than pumping money to India or Iran.

South American Fascist inclined governments were also wary of US influence in their countries and were willing to court the Nazis for a while before, during, and after WW2 to avoid that (to no avail).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America_during_World_War_II
Without exclusive increased trade with the US due to the war with Europe Latin America would be more open ITTL IMHO post-war, especially if the Nazis end the war in 1942 and have open trade from 1940 on.

With the trade disruption lasting 12 months or less (war with Britain lasting from September 1939 to July or so 1941) the trade relations between the Nazis/Fascists of Europe and Latin America would resume before US dominance really set in.


Nazi propaganda would be a lot more effective if they won even bigger and locked in their hold on Europe from 1942 on.

The proble is that Us would do everythign possible to counter that influence. Assuming Us and Gemrany went to war then I somehow doubt US would jut stnad by if germany were to try to expand its influence in US backyard.

Sure, Germany cold boast about its big victory but US would be right next door and Gemrany would have zero power projection and little in temrs of influence projection.
 
Iraqi, Iranians, Indians nor Japanese scream Aryan to me...

OTL USA went toe-to-toe with Russia, which since 1900 had endured an abysmal autocracy, loss to Japan, serious revolts, disastrous WW1, revolution and civil war, dictatorship and purges, and disastrous but ultimately successful WW2. Was Russia ever really a contender?

In the POD Germany is significantly stronger and the USA might still be hiding under a rock somewhere.

Soviet Union was contender because it was able to export its ideology. Communism sounds pretty attractive when you are poor peasant and european colony in africa. Selling "White blond Northerners are superior race to everybody else" jsut doesn't have same ring to it. ;)

And Us was willing to go toe-to-toe with nation that was an improtant ally only few years back. You don't think they'd do even more agiasnt country that actually fought US?
 
Top