Warwick the Kingmaker

Ok, so I'm totally into the Wars of the Roses. WI: Richard Neville manages to escape and survive the battle that resulted in his death and restoration of Edward IV. WI: He's still alive when Edward dies in 1483?
 
Ok, so I'm totally into the Wars of the Roses. WI: Richard Neville manages to escape and survive the battle that resulted in his death and restoration of Edward IV. WI: He's still alive when Edward dies in 1483?

For him to still be alive when Edward dies is going to take some legal shenanigans, since Warwick was well and truly a traitor. Yes, he was brother to the king's mother, and father-in-law to two of the king's brothers; but that's not necessarily going to save his head. Him dying in battle was the only way Edward was deprived of that possibility - Warwick, much like Clarence, later, is too powerful to be left to dangle as a loose thread. So, he'll either be deprived of his estates in favor of his daughters, and allowed to live (much like his wife, in close confinement), or be cropped at the neck for reaching too high.

However, a storm of butterflies and Edward forgives him blah-blah, and he's still alive in '83, Clarence has been drowned/beheaded as OTL, then he's definitely going to favor Edward of Clarence over Edward V/Richard III (traitor father or no); although, he might do one of his characteristic volte faces to side against Gloucester (but I doubt it).
 
So, he'll either be deprived of his estates in favor of his daughters, and allowed to live (much like his wife, in close confinement).

No chance of that happening, either he escapes to the Continent or dies either on the battlefield/Tower Hill. He was far, far too dangerous to be allowed to live no matter where he was imprisoned. He simply had too many retainers and was too charismatic.
 
If you like the WOTR a then what about joining one of the Retinues in the Fed? We have the Gloucestershire who form an impressive bill block for example. If you are into horses there's Nesfields and Destrier. The Stanley's are a friendly bunch even if they are the Stanleys... You don't have to lug a bill about either as we have others doing anything and everything. I myself recreate a Churgion (as well as a billman/archer although I've also done cannon crew which is nice...)
 
Ok, so I'm totally into the Wars of the Roses. WI: Richard Neville manages to escape and survive the battle that resulted in his death and restoration of Edward IV. WI: He's still alive when Edward dies in 1483?
As others have said, his best case scenario is escaping to the continent. Which admittedly isn't completely impossible (Oxford was at the same battle, and managed it). But he will be extremely high on Edward's target list, and if he ends up getting captured at any point (as Oxford did), he's probably dead.

If he does survive and is still alive, he probably ends up as one of the Tudor generals at Bosworth (much like...Oxford).
 

RousseauX

Donor
Ok, so I'm totally into the Wars of the Roses. WI: Richard Neville manages to escape and survive the battle that resulted in his death and restoration of Edward IV. WI: He's still alive when Edward dies in 1483?

Warwick is done after 1471, even if he doesn't die he will be stripped of all lands and titles. Furthermore, given his personality, chances are he'll try yet again to plot against EIV and get his head chopped off, kinda like Clarence OTL.

Granted Edward IV might have wanted to keep him alive because was a good friend and ally back in 1460-61. If he does survive I wouldn't be surprised if he switches to Tudor's side in an effort to regain some land/influence.
 
If he does survive and is still alive, he probably ends up as one of the Tudor generals at Bosworth (much like...Oxford).

That would be very interesting. Warwick surviving to play Kingmaker one last time with the Tudors would make him one of history's (and the War of the Roses') greatest survivors. How does this effect his grandchildren through the Clarence line - Lady Margaret Plantagenet and Edward (the last male Plantagenet and in OTL Earl of Warwick who spent most his short life in the Tower). Henry VII married off Margaret to one of his lackeys/relative, Richard Pole and eventually had young Edward of Warwick killed after keeping in the Tower most of his life. If Neville is still alive and one of the people responsible for a Tudor victory do these things still happen?
 
Last edited:
If Warwick had escaped and gone on to successfully join Henry Tudor at *Bosworth (and the Tudors still win), he would come out extremely wealthy (Henry VII was perfectly willing to reward his supporters). Whether or not he could keep it is another question; if he decides to later back someone like Lambert Simnel or Perkin Warbeck, he is likely to end up decidedly dead if Henry VII still wins out.

That might also affect who how his heirs fair; if nothing else a loyal Warwick is unlikely to see his grandson try and escape to join the rebels (the proximate Edward's reason for his execution OTL).

It's also worth remembering that if he stays loyal to the Lancastrians, his daughters will still be in Yorkist captivity (and depending on how Warwick's lands are treated, quite possibly much less wealthy heiresses). So, for instance, Anne may not end up marrying Richard III if her father is still a living traitor instead of a dead source of inheritance.

Warwick may also very easily get caught up in some of the various anti-Edward IV intrigues running around (Clarence will certainly continue to be his treacherously incompetent self, and his father-in-law would be an obvious contact for foreign help) and wind up dead that way.
 
Warwick is done after 1471, even if he doesn't die he will be stripped of all lands and titles. Furthermore, given his personality, chances are he'll try yet again to plot against EIV and get his head chopped off, kinda like Clarence OTL.

Granted Edward IV might have wanted to keep him alive because was a good friend and ally back in 1460-61. If he does survive I wouldn't be surprised if he switches to Tudor's side in an effort to regain some land/influence.

I think it's important to remember that as far as plotting went, Clarence was singularly incompetent - and also, when EIV finally signed his death warrant, it was due to the fact that it wasn't the first time that he'd forgiven his brother's treachery. Warwick was (by comparison to Clarence) a far smarter cookie when it came to plotting.

Therefore, the minute EIV breathes his last, Warwick will make all haste back to England (assuming he fled abroad). Warwick never liked the Woodvilles, so he's going to try and head a faction against them; while the Woodvilles, with a more common visible enemy (as opposed to Gloucester who in Shakespeare's words "clothed in odds-and-ends stolen from holy writ, to most seem the saint when I play the devil") might be more of one mindset than OTL.
 
I think it's important to remember that as far as plotting went, Clarence was singularly incompetent - and also, when EIV finally signed his death warrant, it was due to the fact that it wasn't the first time that he'd forgiven his brother's treachery. Warwick was (by comparison to Clarence) a far smarter cookie when it came to plotting.

Therefore, the minute EIV breathes his last, Warwick will make all haste back to England (assuming he fled abroad). Warwick never liked the Woodvilles, so he's going to try and head a faction against them; while the Woodvilles, with a more common visible enemy (as opposed to Gloucester who in Shakespeare's words "clothed in odds-and-ends stolen from holy writ, to most seem the saint when I play the devil") might be more of one mindset than OTL.


And after all, Richard III was his son-in-law.
 
And after all, Richard III was his son-in-law.

That's he's unlikely to be son-in-law to a living Warwick. Remember in OTL at the time Warwick died at Barnet Anne Neville was married to Edward of Westminster, King Henry VI's son, and she only became a widow a few weeks later when Edward of Westminster died at Tewkesbury. In fact even if Warwick survived Barnet he might die Tewkesbury assuming that isn't butterflied away.

As for his lands if he survives and escapes into exile* and his daughters status as heiresses it's very complicated. On one hand if he is attainted then his daughters cease to become heiress and Clarence, Edward IV's brother, is going to be spectacularly unhappy. On the other hand Clarence has already betrayed Edward IV once and only rejoined Edward IV just before Barnet so Edward IV might not care.

As for the Tudor's and Bosworth a surviving Warwick is going to set off all sorts of butterflies including whether Tewkesbury even happens and if it does whether Edward of Westminster survives and escapes. A surviving Edward of Westminster sitting in France post 1471 would have massive political consequences.


*If he's captured he's dead, it's that simple. Edward IV executed his own brother after one treason too many and by 1471 Warwick has repeatedly betrayed Edward IV.
 
For him to still be alive when Edward dies is going to take some legal shenanigans, since Warwick was well and truly a traitor. Yes, he was brother to the king's mother, and father-in-law to two of the king's brothers; but that's not necessarily going to save his head. Him dying in battle was the only way Edward was deprived of that possibility - Warwick, much like Clarence, later, is too powerful to be left to dangle as a loose thread. So, he'll either be deprived of his estates in favor of his daughters, and allowed to live (much like his wife, in close confinement), or be cropped at the neck for reaching too high.

However, a storm of butterflies and Edward forgives him blah-blah, and he's still alive in '83, Clarence has been drowned/beheaded as OTL, then he's definitely going to favor Edward of Clarence over Edward V/Richard III (traitor father or no); although, he might do one of his characteristic volte faces to side against Gloucester (but I doubt it).

Actually Warwick was Duchess Cecily's nephew not brother. Warwick was Edward,George and Richards cousin not uncle. Warwick father was also named Richard and he was the Earl of Salisbury, he was the brother to Cecily.
 
Top