Wars of the Roses WI: Both Henry Tudor and Richard III die?

Edward VI would also be able to simply appropriate (or his protector would) the vast Warwick Salisbury inheritance that Edward IV had simply confiscated and divided between his brothers - it would a give the new regime vast lands to hand out to loyal supporters or would enable the new King's council to enjoy a considerable income.

That points to a literal "battle royal" for guardianship of Edward VI. His mother is long dead and he has no close male relatives

The key question is what the regime does with Edward's cousins - the York Princesses were technically illegitimate but many had questioned the validity of RIchard III's act and a key figure at the new court will be their half brother the Marquess of Dorset and their mother the Queen Dowager.

So i suspect our ten year old King will soon be betrothed to his cousin Elizabeth despite the 9 year age difference.

Interesting thought. Could his wife also be his Regent?
 
But would Elizabeth accept this arrangement? Couldn't she simply claim the throne to herself, even if by marrying someone strong enough to defend her rights?

Agreed. It's far from certain, esp if she's gone abroad. And if Warwick's accession is liable to be followed by civil war between rival "protectors", she has no reason to commit herself early.
 
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There is a significant lack of key male figures - and that might be to Warwick's advantage in the short term.

Would suspect they would revert to the tradition of no Regent or Protector but instead give the King a guardian and run the country via a council - probably an amalgam of surviving members of Edward IV and Richard III's with a few additions.

I suspect the guardianship would go to Lincoln as the young King's nearest adult male relative (Suffolk Lincoln's father seems to have preferred to keep himself out of the limelight).

They are going to have to deal with Edward IV's daughter's though - a reversal of their illegitimacy technically makes Elizabeth Queen Regnant whilst allowing it to stand makes Warwick the legal heir of the house of York.

Parliament as they did under Richard III and Henry VII were quite capable of fudging rules to get the result they wanted.

The easiest way to solve the problem is a betrothal - and I suspect the pressure for Elizabeth of York to marry her cousin is going to be strong.

She has zero financial resources and little in the way of family support - she was also educated and raised to be a Queen consort by ambitious parents.

Dorset is going to be one key figure and he will certainly push for a betrothal for his half sister.

The benefits far outway the fact that Edward is the son of her father's least favourite sibling.

I suspect the council might use the younger daughters as bargaining chips to shore up domestic support for the new regime.

The issue of the missing Edward V still remains to haunt any new regime but with Warwick as King you can probably have a regime less haunted by it than the less dynastically secure Henry VII.

There is a problem with the age difference but he can't marry one of her younger sisters (say Anne or Catherine) unless they remain illegitimate or they are kept at court and unmarried which Dorset and their mother are going to strongly object too.
 
There is a significant lack of key male figures - and that might be to Warwick's advantage in the short term.

Would suspect they would revert to the tradition of no Regent or Protector but instead give the King a guardian and run the country via a council - probably an amalgam of surviving members of Edward IV and Richard III's with a few additions.

Problem is that things are very different now from sixty years ago. The Council that ruled for Henry VI didn't consist of men who'd been at war with each other only last year. This is going to be very ticklish.

Incidentally, why would Richard III supporters be included? If Bosworth (apart from Henry's death) has gone similarly to OTL, they have been -pretty well crushed, and Oxford, Stanley and Northumberland will have enough trouble dividing the spoils without having to find room for any survivors of the previous regime.

I suspect the guardianship would go to Lincoln as the young King's nearest adult male relative (Suffolk Lincoln's father seems to have preferred to keep himself out of the limelight).

That would be an almighty risk. Lincoln has been declared heir by Richard III, and won't have forgotten it, but as long as Warwick lives he has no chance. Making him Warwick's guardian would be letting the fox look after the chicken coop.


They are going to have to deal with Edward IV's daughter's though - a reversal of their illegitimacy technically makes Elizabeth Queen Regnant whilst allowing it to stand makes Warwick the legal heir of the house of York.

Parliament as they did under Richard III and Henry VII were quite capable of fudging rules to get the result they wanted.

The easiest way to solve the problem is a betrothal - and I suspect the pressure for Elizabeth of York to marry her cousin is going to be strong.

She has zero financial resources and little in the way of family support - she was also educated and raised to be a Queen consort by ambitious parents.

Are we assuming she has stayed in England?

If she has escaped to Burgundy, she'll have plenty of financial support, from her aunt Margaret and/or her wannabe husband, Maximilian.
 
There is no historical evidence that Lincoln was ever 'named' heir to Richard III after the death of Edward of Middleham.

Certainly Richard favoured him - his generosity quite generous - but he was Richard's closest adult male relative.
And after Buckingham's rebellion, and Edward of Middleham's death the dynasty needed propping up!

During Edward IV's reign most men who had been fighting for decades managed to come to some accommodation (with only a few notable exceptions) with each other I don't believe there is any great reason to think that they can't come to terms with each other now.

Oxford was a rare exception of someone who remained committed to the cause despite the personal cost to him.

In fact personal rivalries, disputes over land, territorial ambition in their localities played far more significant a role in the lives of these individuals than who sat on the throne.

Northumberland was imprisoned and then released by Edward IV served him loyally until his death, had relatively good relationship with Richard III and then went on to serve Henry VII until his death in 1489.

Surrey (2nd Duke of Norfolk) he and his father served Edward IV, then did very well out of Richard III and again went on to serve Henry VII.

Stanley had served successive monarchs dying comfortably in his bed.
Dorset is rich through his wife and bitter thanks to Richard III ending his plans for his son's marriage to Anne St Leger (the couple would receive the Exeter Holland inheritance that Edward IV had endowed his widowed sister with) - however his attempt to return and make piece with Richard was foiled by Henry VII who didn't trust him and left him in France - news of Bosworth will make him head for home quickly if the French will let him.

The key figures of the new Yorkist nobility were gone anyway - Edward IV's loyalists (who'd resented Richard's usurpation) - people such as Hastings, Earl Rivers (the Queen's eldest brother) etc are long gone - either heirless or leaving minors.

The most dangerous and prominant aristocrat in terms of resentment and wealth - Buckingham - is dead and his heir is a child (with a Woodville mother).

One risk with Lincoln is that Richard III had granted him the reversion of Margaret Beaufort's estates (given her son was at that point under attainder) that is a strong source of conflict with Stanley which would have to be addressed.

It is generally thought likely that the younger members of Richard's family including his nieces were at Sherriff Hutton near York at the time of Bosworth - given when news of Bosworth reached York in OTL i think it quite likely that there time to flee was very narrow - and given the girls mother was still in London, their half brother in France, and Warwick probably with them unecessary.
 
It is generally thought likely that the younger members of Richard's family including his nieces were at Sherriff Hutton near York at the time of Bosworth - given when news of Bosworth reached York in OTL i think it quite likely that there time to flee was very narrow - and given the girls mother was still in London, their half brother in France, and Warwick probably with them unecessary.

Was following you fine until this last bit, not sure what you mean ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
During Edward IV's reign most men who had been fighting for decades managed to come to some accommodation (with only a few notable exceptions) with each other I don't believe there is any great reason to think that they can't come to terms with each other now.

Except for one crucial difference. There's no Edward IV any more.

EIV was a good politician, who was able to keep the peace between his great lords - so long as he was indisputably in charge. That's why the two halves of his reign were so different. In the first half, Warwick the Kingmaker was too big to control, so the regime was unstable. With him removed, and Edward firmly in the saddle, peace reigned.

With Edward gone, his system went to pieces. Richard was apparently in charge, but had alienated so many in the course of gaining power as to be a source of instability. Henry VII got things back on track, but it took a few years.

Afaics, the TTL situation resembles the latter years of Henry VI's reign, or the first half of Edward's - a situation where nobody is in charge. Were I a highly eligible heiress like Elizabeth of York, I'd flee while the going was good, rather than become a pawn in the hands of those blue-blooded mafiosi.
 
I think Lincoln is being under-sold here. He is in his early twenties and had been appointed King's liuetenant in Ireland and more importantly President of the Council of the North. I think this combined with his uncles popularity in the North would make it fairly easy for him to amass a sizeable force to support either himself or his cousin Warwick. Furthermore without a pretender I believe Oxford, Jasper Tudor and Stanley would be facing serious difficulties.

Would also like to thank all the posters on this thread, as it encouraged me to register so thank you! :D
 
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