Warnings from Diamond Head radar operators heeded

Blair152

Banned
There may, or may not, be a thread about this. I don't think so. As you're
well aware, there was an experimental radar installation on Diamond Head,
manned by two privates. Their names escape me. The radar installation was
linked to a station by field telephone. The privates noticed the first wave of
the attacking Japanese planes just as they dipped below Diamond Head. The first private reported it. The only person on duty that morning was a lieutenant. The private said that he'd just spotted an unusual blip on the radar. He was dismissed. Then a minute or later, the second private reported
another suspicious blip. The lieutenant told them to disregard it that it was just a flight of B-17s flying in from the mainland. It had been dramatized in
movies like Air Force, (1943), Tora! Tora! Tora!, (1970), and most recently, Pearl Harbor, (2001). What if the warnings from the Diamond Head radar operators had been heeded?
 
I have seen something on this somewhere here. Probably under Pearl Harbor. Never the less, I'd like to think it would result in the Air Corp getting the CAP in the air and the Navy the AA ammo unlocked and ready on the BB's etc. but the way things were laid out with the aircraft wing to wing in the center of the field, it might not have been enough time. I don't know if the planes were fueled or armed. I kind of doubt it.
 
I don't believe there was a radar post, either mobile or stationary, on Diamond Head in 1941. There was one at Kokohead, which is further east. Radar based, either on the rim of the crater or at its base, would face southward. Everything you describe is associated with the Opana site on the North Shore.
 

Blair152

Banned
I have seen something on this somewhere here. Probably under Pearl Harbor. Never the less, I'd like to think it would result in the Air Corp getting the CAP in the air and the Navy the AA ammo unlocked and ready on the BB's etc. but the way things were laid out with the aircraft wing to wing in the center of the field, it might not have been enough time. I don't know if the planes were fueled or armed. I kind of doubt it.
Maybe. However, the Air Corps' most advanced plane at the time, the P-40,
was a good plane at lower altitudes, but above 30,000 feet, it was horrible.
It didn't have a supercharger on its Allison engine and couldn't turn with the
Zero. That was why Claire Lee Chennault, the commander of the American
Volunteer Group, also known as the Flying Tigers, instructed his pilots NOT
to dogfight the Zero. He told them to use their altitude advantage.
 
The Allison engine in the P-40 was equipped with an integral supercharger. Even the turbo-supercharged P-38's Allisons had an integral supercharger.

American pilots weren't supplied with Chennault's rules, Moelder's rules, or Malan's rules of air combat and probably wouldn't have had time to gain sufficient altitude to challenge Zekes. Vals and Kates would be, and were viable targets.

Curiously, the British at Colombo didn't fare as well with a day's warning, except for moving the fleet. One of two squadrons of Hurricanes was still caught on the ground during tea.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Virtually no difference. The operators didn't observe the contact until 07:15. The Japanese tipped over into their dives at 07:55.

You can't go from peace to war in 40 minutes. Not only were the aircraft not dispersed, they were were also not armed in most cases and nearly all were not fully fueled. There was no alert status for the pilots, much less any sort of "hot pad" alert.

Ships were not even at Condition 2 and many key personnel were not aboard. Ammunition was mostly stored in the magazines, especially for the despised 1.1" AAA guns.

The Army AAA was not on Alert and only around a third of the batteries had the Ready Ammo boxes filled.

Overall, Pearl Harbor was at peace and not expecting trouble. Japan was already at war.

There are several very good analysis of the situation here in the Forum.
 
What about the reported sinking of a midget submarine by the Ward? I believe it happened maybe 2-3 hrs before the bombing, but the commanding officer dismissed it as whale.

If this had report had been taken seriously, there'd have to be a significant change; not B-17s and WWI battlewagons sinking Kido Butai; but fewer casualties, fewer damaged and sunk ships, maybe more of the Japanese air fleet destroyed?
 
Well, supposing that for whatever reason the forces at pearl are somehwat more ready than OTL, the midget submarine is a possibility. I would imagine that even with a couple hours forewarning the USAAF and USN are still poorly prepared for an attack at pearl. All the naval vessels are sitting ducks in the harbor, and sortieing would just make themunrecoverable when sunk. Nearly all US personnel on hawaii had no combat experience, all the japanese pilots were seasoned veterans with superior planes. I can forsee that even with a couple hours preparation the battle still ends in significant losses for the US, maybe not as bad as OTL, but still pretty bad. The bigger difference maker is that there will most likely be much higher casualties amongst the japanese pilots. This could result in no relief for the invasion at wake because there aren't enough working aircraft and pilots to help out, or perhaps when Admiral Fletcher makes his move to relieve Wake, he has more guts to keep going and the japanese don't have enough aircraft to face him in an open engagement.
 

Blair152

Banned
Virtually no difference. The operators didn't observe the contact until 07:15. The Japanese tipped over into their dives at 07:55.

You can't go from peace to war in 40 minutes. Not only were the aircraft not dispersed, they were were also not armed in most cases and nearly all were not fully fueled. There was no alert status for the pilots, much less any sort of "hot pad" alert.

Ships were not even at Condition 2 and many key personnel were not aboard. Ammunition was mostly stored in the magazines, especially for the despised 1.1" AAA guns.

The Army AAA was not on Alert and only around a third of the batteries had the Ready Ammo boxes filled.

Overall, Pearl Harbor was at peace and not expecting trouble. Japan was already at war.

There are several very good analysis of the situation here in the Forum.
That's right. They were lined up wingtip to wingtip. You could say that they
were stacked like cordwood. Why? Because the Air Corps was more concerned about sabotage than it was about a Japanese attack.
 
That's right. They were lined up wingtip to wingtip. You could say that they
were stacked like cordwood. Why? Because the Air Corps was more concerned about sabotage than it was about a Japanese attack.

How was keeping them close together suppose to prevent sabotage?
 

Blair152

Banned
How was keeping them close together suppose to prevent sabotage?
That was what they did. That's why they were easier to bomb. They could have been dispersed to remote airfields. That's what the Poles did to their
PZL P.11s to prevent them from being bombed.
 
How was keeping them close together suppose to prevent sabotage?

Having them in one place allowed a relatively small numbers of troops to be able to guard most of the area's air assets... the theory behind putting the gold reserves at ft knox, and then putting a tank division around it :D
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
What about the reported sinking of a midget submarine by the Ward? I believe it happened maybe 2-3 hrs before the bombing, but the commanding officer dismissed it as whale.

If this had report had been taken seriously, there'd have to be a significant change; not B-17s and WWI battlewagons sinking Kido Butai; but fewer casualties, fewer damaged and sunk ships, maybe more of the Japanese air fleet destroyed?


If you look at my Pacific War Redux or a couple of Marcus posts on this exact subject you will see that a lot of us here (myself included) see this as possibly the last possible moment to make a difference in the outcome.

'Course it would have helped to have the defenses at at least semi-readiness.
 
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