War of the French Succession?

what would happen if Louis, Duke of Anjou, had died in 1714? his death leaves Philip V of Spain the closest heir to the French Crown, and this at the end of the War of Spanish Succession, the next nearest clament is Philippe II, Duke of Orléans, who will die in 1723 with only one male heir.
 
what would happen if Louis, Duke of Anjou, had died in 1714? his death leaves Philip V of Spain the closest heir to the French Crown, and this at the end of the War of Spanish Succession, the next nearest clament is Philippe II, Duke of Orléans, who will die in 1723 with only one male heir.

I've found two threads about the possibility of a French Succession War during this period:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=82331

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=85711

By the discussions it seems that Spain would be alone against the rest of the powers right after the end of the Spanish Succession War.
 
Hey, have respect for minority reports! :p

Well, I also have some different ideas about it!:p

I was reading more about it, and I think the best option would make Louis die in the early 1712, along with his father and brother. As the Treaty of Utrecht was only signed IOTL in 1713, if Philip becomes the heir of France he still haven't renounced to his rights to the French throne. It might be reason enough to put Britain and the Netherlands back in the fight. However, as now Charles VI is also the Emperor, and his victory could united all the Habsburgs lands it wouldn't be a solution they would like too.

Now, according to the will of Charles II, if Philip had inherited the French throne, then Spain should have gone to his younger brother, Charles, Duke of Berry. IOTL he would die two years later, in 1714, from injuries caused by a hunting accident. But, if his older brother is proclaimed king of France and Berry is made king of Spain it might be changed.

But the consequences of it would also be interesting. Berry's wife, Marie Louise d'Orleans, suffered a miscarriage and after that none of her children lived more than four months. Even after her husbands death she had clandestine births, and died as a consequence of a miscarriage in 1719. So, we could assume that Marie Louise would die soon or later following a miscarriage. Then, one of the terms of the peace made with Charles VI is that Berry should marry the eldest daughter of his brother Joseph I, Maria Josepha of Austria. It also would united the Bourbon and the Habsburgs claims to the Spanish throne.
 
Well, I also have some different ideas about it!:p

I was reading more about it, and I think the best option would make Louis die in the early 1712, along with his father and brother. As the Treaty of Utrecht was only signed IOTL in 1713, if Philip becomes the heir of France he still haven't renounced to his rights to the French throne. It might be reason enough to put Britain and the Netherlands back in the fight. However, as now Charles VI is also the Emperor, and his victory could united all the Habsburgs lands it wouldn't be a solution they would like too.

see under French Succession law Philip didn't have the right to do that, according to French Succession law the eldest legitimate male heir of Hugh Capet can not be denied the French crown for any reason, if Louis, Duke of Anjou dies, Philip becomes the eldest legitimate male heir of Hugh Capet
 

Susano

Banned
see under French Succession law Philip didn't have the right to do that, according to French Succession law the eldest legitimate male heir of Hugh Capet can not be denied the French crown for any reason, if Louis, Duke of Anjou dies, Philip becomes the eldest legitimate male heir of Hugh Capet

Eh? Apparently the legitimists thought otherwise in the 19thc entur except for a fringe. Or really, the Versailles Court at the time...
 
Only the fringe Legitimists (The Blancs d'Espagne) in the 19th century said that Philip's renunciation at Utrecht was illegal. You have to take in account the French succession law and the political realities after the War of Spanish Succession. Political reality triumphs; the great powers would've united to stop Philip being King of France and Spain, not to mention had he chosen to press his claims, a civil war probably would've erupted between supporters of the Duc d'Orléans and the King of Spain. A very messy affair it would be.
 
Only the fringe Legitimists (The Blancs d'Espagne) in the 19th century said that Philip's renunciation at Utrecht was illegal. You have to take in account the French succession law and the political realities after the War of Spanish Succession. Political reality triumphs; the great powers would've united to stop Philip being King of France and Spain, not to mention had he chosen to press his claims, a civil war probably would've erupted between supporters of the Duc d'Orléans and the King of Spain. A very messy affair it would be.

which is why i thought up this thread, https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=117428 which is more the question i wanted :)
 
Only the fringe Legitimists (The Blancs d'Espagne) in the 19th century said that Philip's renunciation at Utrecht was illegal. You have to take in account the French succession law and the political realities after the War of Spanish Succession. Political reality triumphs; the great powers would've united to stop Philip being King of France and Spain.

Though a coalition of powers (basically all of Europe) would have united to stop Philip V from taking the French throne, Philip would have been viewed in France as the legitimate monarch. The French monarchy since Hugh Capet had gone to the eldest male-line descendant and that was Philip V. I can see some kind of deal struck to keep Spain and France from being united, but I don't see Philip being denied the French throne- France simply can't accept that- it would go against literally the country's ENTIRE history.

In OTL Louis XV allowed the crisis to never develop, but if he is gone I don't see Orleans as being able to fill that same role.

A civil war probably would've erupted between supporters of the Duc d'Orléans and the King of Spain. A very messy affair it would be.
I think what you would have seen would be Philip V abdicating the Spanish throne to take the French throne, leaving his young son Louis as the new Spanish King. Philip could leave the regency in the hands of his wife, Maria Luisa of Savoy.

If Philip V puts himself forward as a candidate however, I don't see France denying him the throne. I think Philip could well go for it as the King of Spain as well- in OTL he attempted to retake Italy without French help- with the French throne his by right he would have reason to make a bid for it- at least if there is war in France he won't have to deal with French opposition to his Italian ambitions. In this scenario Philip V would be opposed by Orleans- which condemns France to a civil war.

Alternatively- Louis XIV could take the drastic step of declaring his own legitimized son, Louis-Auguste, the Duke of Maine, his heir in the wake of Louis, Duke of Anjou's, death. If he did though, I think as soon as Louis XIV died Orleans would get the Parlement of Paris to repudiate the will and have himself declared King Philip VII. After which Philip V (and also the VII of France) invades and the "War of French Succession" (alternatively known as the "War of the Two Philips") begins.
 
Last edited:
Oh crap. I have a scenario worked out involving this question (I won't say how it works out) coming up in my timeline too.

I think Phil the Duke is a great historical character (Really, he doesn't seem stuffy enough to be referred to as duc d'Orleans), and if called upon could even manage to be a good king if he managed to lay off the fast living. The idea of the worldly debauche watching over the really pathetic childhood of Louis XV is somehow darkly comic. I find Colin Jones' The Great Nation to be a really great account for people who want to peruse this in some detail.
 
Assuming that the future Louis XV dies in 1714, as was suggested before, how about this: Philip goes back to France to defend his rights. By that time he already had a seven-years-old son (who would be his heir Louis) and an infant son (the future Ferdinand VI). So, one plan would be to make the one-year-old Ferdinand as king of Spain under a regency, while Philip and Louis go back to France.

But Ferdinand would be too young, and with all his other descendents dead Louis XIV might want Ferdinand in France too, as a reserve in case his eldest brother dies. Also, if Ferdinand is made king then Philip would need to rely on a long regency for his son in Spain, and as he is in France he wouldn't have the power to control all the regency's decisions in Madrid. So, the other idea (I'm not sure how likely would be though) is a compromise agreement. France recognizes the Habsburg claim but, considering that Spain still doesn't follow Salic Law (and they make it sure to be remembered, because no one would want a union between Spain and Austria again) they only accept as the monarch of Spain the eldest daughter of Joseph I, Maria Josepha of Austria. She would only marry IOTL in 1719, and her husband would be Frederick Augustus II of Saxony. But IOTL they would probably find other husband to her (and it would be cool, as Spain would be under a totally different dynasty).

Any ideas for a compromise king consort of Spain? I have a suggestion: in order to please the Duke of Orleans, and as sign of compromise, Maria Josepha is married to the duke's son, Louis of Orléans. A Bourbon is on the Spanish throne, but he is not likely to inherit the French throne, something the other powers would gladly accept.
 
Assuming that the future Louis XV dies in 1714, as was suggested before, how about this: Philip goes back to France to defend his rights. By that time he already had a seven-years-old son (who would be his heir Louis) and an infant son (the future Ferdinand VI). So, one plan would be to make the one-year-old Ferdinand as king of Spain under a regency, while Philip and Louis go back to France.

But Ferdinand would be too young, and with all his other descendents dead Louis XIV might want Ferdinand in France too, as a reserve in case his eldest brother dies. Also, if Ferdinand is made king then Philip would need to rely on a long regency for his son in Spain, and as he is in France he wouldn't have the power to control all the regency's decisions in Madrid. So, the other idea (I'm not sure how likely would be though) is a compromise agreement. France recognizes the Habsburg claim but, considering that Spain still doesn't follow Salic Law (and they make it sure to be remembered, because no one would want a union between Spain and Austria again) they only accept as the monarch of Spain the eldest daughter of Joseph I, Maria Josepha of Austria. She would only marry IOTL in 1719, and her husband would be Frederick Augustus II of Saxony. But IOTL they would probably find other husband to her (and it would be cool, as Spain would be under a totally different dynasty).

Any ideas for a compromise king consort of Spain? I have a suggestion: in order to please the Duke of Orleans, and as sign of compromise, Maria Josepha is married to the duke's son, Louis of Orléans. A Bourbon is on the Spanish throne, but he is not likely to inherit the French throne, something the other powers would gladly accept.

Wow. What an excellent idea.

As an aside, post-Louis XIV is the French throne considered to have been ruled by a Cadet Branch of the House of Capet, the Senior Branch ruling in Spain?
 
so our claimants to the French Crown are King Philip V of Spain (Philip VII if King of France), he has the best claim to the Crown as the eldest male-line legitimate descendant of Hugh Capet, he also was heir (at this date two, Louis and Ferdinand) how ever all of Europe is ready to stop him from becoming king of Spain and France, so he can: fight it out: give up the spanish crown to his son Louis and become King of France: give the spanish crown to his other son Ferdinand and become King of France with Louis as Dauphin (in both cases Philip would be Régent in Spain) or he could pass up the French Crown giving it to one of his sons and be Régent in France
the next claimant is Philippe II, Duke of Orléans (or Philip VII if King) a power house in the french court, Philippe II has an Louis d'Orléans, and he never renounced his rights to the crown, all of Europe isn't against him taking power.
the wild card in all of this is Louis XIV, in his Will in OTL he put his illegitimate Louis-Auguste de Bourbon, duc du Maine and Louis-Alexandre de Bourbon, comte de Toulouse in the line of succession, in OTL Louis XIV didn't really want to do this, but in a TL without Louis XV, Louis XIV might leave his Kingdom to his sons, Louis-Auguste has 2 living son by the time of Louis XIV's death Louis-Alexandre is unmarried at the time,
 
there's also the question of the Spanish Crown, Philip could keep both crowns (unlikely) he could keep the Spanish crown and let one of his sons take France, he could give up the spanish crown for the french one and leave one of his sons king of spain, however all of these are imperfect, so maybe give up the Bourbon claim to Spain and let the Habsburgs have it, Charles VI wanted the Spanish Crown badly, but this to isn't perfect, most of Europe doesn't want the rebirth of Charles V's empire, Charles VI has no heirs in 1715, if the Habsburgs wanted to leave the Spanish Crown to a different person they'd have a hell of a time of if, Leopold I (Charles VI's father) had two sons one died without issue (Joseph I) the other is Charles VI, his daughters are, Maria Antonia died 1692 no issue, Maria Elisabeth 35 and unmarried, in OTL she never married, Maria Anna, Queen of Portugal, has two heirs by 1715, Portugal and Spain united under Portugal?
 
Wow. What an excellent idea.

As an aside, post-Louis XIV is the French throne considered to have been ruled by a Cadet Branch of the House of Capet, the Senior Branch ruling in Spain?

No, Philip and his sons are still the Senior branch of the House of Capet (that's why he needs to be made king of France after all).

Also, to make things even more interesting, if Louis XIV and Philip decides for a compromise with Orleans maybe they don't even need to recognize Maria Josepha's as queen. Her possible claim came from her grandmother, Maria Anna of Spain, a daughter of Philip III. However, Maria Anna had a eldest sister, Anna, who married Louis XIII of France and was the mother of Louis XIV and Philip, Duke of Orleans. So, Philip II was also a descendent of Philip III, but was senior in the line of sucession than Maria Josepha. The compromise made by the French king might make him king of Spain in order to let Philip becomes king of France (as the senior kingdom and the wealthiest country France would have preference in the succession).

So, Philip of Anjou becomes Philip VII of France, while the Duke of Orleans himself becomes Philip V of Spain. And it would have all kinds of fun in Madrid, as the Duke of Orleans was an atheist who enjoyed parties and orgies... I imagine the Inquisition going mad with him, and the king trying to arrest all those annoying priests.

so our claimants to the French Crown are King Philip V of Spain (Philip VII if King of France), he has the best claim to the Crown as the eldest male-line legitimate descendant of Hugh Capet, he also was heir (at this date two, Louis and Ferdinand) how ever all of Europe is ready to stop him from becoming king of Spain and France, so he can: fight it out: give up the spanish crown to his son Louis and become King of France: give the spanish crown to his other son Ferdinand and become King of France with Louis as Dauphin (in both cases Philip would be Régent in Spain) or he could pass up the French Crown giving it to one of his sons and be Régent in France

The problem is that he couldn't be the regent in France if he is the Spanish king. He would need to let the Duke of Orleans take this role, or choose other noble to make it.

the wild card in all of this is Louis XIV, in his Will in OTL he put his illegitimate Louis-Auguste de Bourbon, duc du Maine and Louis-Alexandre de Bourbon, comte de Toulouse in the line of succession, in OTL Louis XIV didn't really want to do this, but in a TL without Louis XV, Louis XIV might leave his Kingdom to his sons, Louis-Auguste has 2 living son by the time of Louis XIV's death Louis-Alexandre is unmarried at the time,

Well, both Louis-Auguste and Louis Alexandre were already legitimated, but I don't think that Louis XIV would choose a bastard over a legal and legitimate heir, as it would create some dangerous precedents, and also would be a cause of mockery all over Europe, as "the king of France is a bastard!".
 
Well, both Louis-Auguste and Louis Alexandre were already legitimated, but I don't think that Louis XIV would choose a bastard over a legal and legitimate heir, as it would create some dangerous precedents, and also would be a cause of mockery all over Europe, as "the king of France is a bastard!".

true, but Louis XIV might find that the king of France is a bastard is better then a Civil war between Philip V and Philippe II and a European war over united Crowns Spain and France
 
true, but Louis XIV might find that the king of France is a bastard is better then a Civil war between Philip V and Philippe II and a European war over united Crowns Spain and France

But the problem is that it would rather create a three way civil war. Philip of Anjou is the senior legitimate heir of France, and the majority the legitimists would rally to his side, no matter what Louis' bastards would think. So, instead of Anjou X Orleans we would have a war with Anjou X Orleans X The Bastard Pretender.
 
But the problem is that it would rather create a three way civil war. Philip of Anjou is the senior legitimate heir of France, and the majority the legitimists would rally to his side, no matter what Louis' bastards would think. So, instead of Anjou X Orleans we would have a war with Anjou X Orleans X The Bastard Pretender.

noted, would the the Bastards push it any way if Louis XIV didn't make them his Heirs?

any way who would Louis XIV make his Heir? in OTL, it was Louis, Duke of Anjou, Philippe II, Louis-Auguste. at first Louis XIV tried to get Louis-Auguste to be guardian of the Young King and under mind Philippe II's Regency in favor of Louis-Auguste
 
noted, would the the Bastards push it any way if Louis XIV didn't make them his Heirs?

I don't think so. They didn't IOTL, and this situation would be similar. No one expected to bastards make claims by that time. Also, as you said, Louis XIV tried to make his bastard son as regent instead of the Duke of Orleans and didn't managed it. It a bastard wasn't accepted even as regent, his chances to be accepted as king are much fewer.

any way who would Louis XIV make his Heir?

I think that Louis XIV would still choose Philip of Anjou as his heir. Spain might be good, but France is the Bourbon kingdom, and I doubt the king would give up the rights of his only grandson in favour of Orleans. And a bastard is a very unlikely option.
If Philip of Anjou decides to give up Spain then France is his. If not, and he tries to have both Spain and France, than Orleans might have a chance. But I still think the best compromise would be Anjou giving up his claim to Spain to his son Ferdinand, or an agreement giving Spain to Orleans while Anjou and his sons are made heirs of France.
 

Susano

Banned
Hm. Most Succession Wars didnt play out as civil wars, though. The Spanish one was an exception in that, not the rule. I see little reason to believe that France would NOT crown the Duke of Orleans, so what it comes down to would be a straight Franco-Spanish war - which of course Spain has no chance of winning until the rest of Europe decides to hammer on France for past grievances sake.
 
Top