War of the 6th Coalition Big Thread.

At best France can hope for the 1797 border, and only with Metternich and Talleyrand doing all they can to manipulate the other powers to accept that,

What was the difference between the 1797 and 1801 borders? Did the 1797 border include Belgium but not the German Rhineland?
 
Concerning France, its territorial gains were microscopic : It only annexed Montbeliard.

The main provisions of 1801 were financial and diplomatic.
 
What was the difference between the 1797 and 1801 borders? Did the 1797 border include Belgium but not the German Rhineland?

1797 borders are the borders at the end of the War of the First Coalition. 1801 borders are the ones at the end of the Second Coalition War.

According to the 1801 borders, France as more land in Italy (keeps Tuscany and Piedmont) and in Germany (by the 1801 treaty of Lunéville, France gains the left bank of the Rhine in "complete sovereignty" [note that in 1797 France still goes to the left bank but Austria never relinquished it's claims to it, in 1801 France ensured that Austria accepted their rule there as lawful], but renounced any claim to territories east of the Rhine, and some other little border areas were passed to French control).

1797 borders means no Piedmont, only Genoa, Tuscany goes back to the son of Ferdinand III, Leopold II.

Small differences that for the politicians of the time were still very important.
 
Was there really no chance of Napoleon winning in 1812 against Russia, or at least avoiding the disastrous rout of the Grande Armee?
Well, according to wiki the push to Moscow was made irrelevant by the failure of the second planned push towards St Petersburg. Moscow is only useful because it's central and big, but you kinda look more forward to capturing the Tsar than a city in which his family hasn't been residing for a century.
A bit like capturing Paris not being very useful if the King is in Versailles, but with a much greater distance both relative and absolute.
 
You can't compare gigantic Russia with other european countries. Russia has an advantage that is called strategic depth.

It could lead an attrition defensive strategy.

Taking a big city is not necessarily a smart strategic goal. It's' been the same old story since the second punic war. By all standards of the time, Rome was defeated and should have sued for peace on Hannibal's terms.

The big lesson is that there are only 2 ways to defeat on his homeland a country that has both strategic depth and reserves. Either this country accepts that it wants to end hostilities. Or this country is being totally crushed.

Russia un 1812 as Rome after Cannae, did not want to accept peace.

Napoleon did not have the resources to crush a Russia leading a Fabian strategy.
 
Last edited:
You can't compare gigantic Russia with other european countries. Russia has an advantage that is called strategic depth.

It could lead an attrition defensive strategy.

Taking a big city is not necessarily a smart strategic goal. It's' been the same old story since the second punic war. By all standards of the time, Rome was defeated and should have sued for peace on Hannibal's terms.

The big lesson is that there are only 2 ways to defeat on his homeland a country that has both strategic depth and reserves. Either this country accepts that it wants to end hostilities. Or this country is being totally crushed.

Russia un 1812 as Rome after Cannae, did not want to accept peace.

Napoleon did not have the resources to crush a Russia leading a Fabian strategy.

Well, that's an able comparison. As long as Rome stood, Rome which was the capital of the Republic, the Republic didn't sue for peace.
Here, what I meant is as long as they have their capital, they can easily trade space for time.
However, they need a good administrative center. And here my previous analogy with Versailles fails, since Versailles was only ever a castle for nobles, with only highest-level administrative. Paris has always remained the core of French administration, this is why taking Paris is crucial.
Moscow is a large city, with therefore large administration, remnants of the pre- Peter the Great era, and could therefore be used as a backup capital if St Petersburg fell.
Taking Moscow and Saint Petersburg would probably have brought the Russians to sue for peace, if only to relocate their administration in Perm or Orenburg, or any place that is impossible to reach without ripping one way through all of Russia.
 
Top