War of Danish Succesion

Valdemar II

Banned
This is something of a double POD

I was looking at Oldenburg family, and a interesting detail I found was that Frederik V was the first king in a century which produce a second legime son whom produced any children himself. But he only produced this son in his second marriage. His first wife died from a miscarriage in 1751. So what if Frederiks second marriage are childless. He had at this point one son and three daugthers. Of course the son became quite insane (depressive fixed with heavy use of alcohol, it could only get worse), but succed in producing a son. But what if in one of his darker moment he killed himself in 1765. Now we have the mix up for a Danish Succesion War. Frederiks oldest daugther was married to the King of Sweden, while his second daugther was married to the later Landgraf of Hesse-Cassel and the third to his brother. But we have other problems the Oldenburg sideline the Gottorps and Sönderburgs had claim to Schleswig-Holstein and Oldenburg.

So we have the problem the king of Sweden has the best claim to all the Oldenburgs possesions as a Gottorp married to the daugther of the king, Hesse-Kassel has a weaker claim, but they're aren't a big threat. Russia has weak claim on the Kingdoms, but a somewhat better claim on the duchies, but still a weaker one than either the Swedish king or the Söndeburgian dukes, but strong enough to compete with Hesse-Kassel.

The big problem are that this are rigth after the 7YW, does any one want a new big war, on the other hand a Danish-Swedish union would be a nigthmare for both the British and Russians, while Hesse-Kassel would be incredible strengthen by a union with Denmark, something which neither the Hohenzollern or Wittelbach would want. A Russian-Danish union would be a nigthmare for everybody but the Russians. So likely war it is.
 

Redbeard

Banned
This is something of a double POD

I was looking at Oldenburg family, and a interesting detail I found was that Frederik V was the first king in a century which produce a second legime son whom produced any children himself. But he only produced this son in his second marriage. His first wife died from a miscarriage in 1751. So what if Frederiks second marriage are childless. He had at this point one son and three daugthers. Of course the son became quite insane (depressive fixed with heavy use of alcohol, it could only get worse), but succed in producing a son. But what if in one of his darker moment he killed himself in 1765. Now we have the mix up for a Danish Succesion War. Frederiks oldest daugther was married to the King of Sweden, while his second daugther was married to the later Landgraf of Hesse-Cassel and the third to his brother. But we have other problems the Oldenburg sideline the Gottorps and Sönderburgs had claim to Schleswig-Holstein and Oldenburg.

So we have the problem the king of Sweden has the best claim to all the Oldenburgs possesions as a Gottorp married to the daugther of the king, Hesse-Kassel has a weaker claim, but they're aren't a big threat. Russia has weak claim on the Kingdoms, but a somewhat better claim on the duchies, but still a weaker one than either the Swedish king or the Söndeburgian dukes, but strong enough to compete with Hesse-Kassel.

The big problem are that this are rigth after the 7YW, does any one want a new big war, on the other hand a Danish-Swedish union would be a nigthmare for both the British and Russians, while Hesse-Kassel would be incredible strengthen by a union with Denmark, something which neither the Hohenzollern or Wittelbach would want. A Russian-Danish union would be a nigthmare for everybody but the Russians. So likely war it is.

Never had thought of this option before, but it does indeed hold some interesting potential.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
I'm interested in a Russian-Danish union. The way you've phrased it makes it sound like nobody but Russia would want that; is there any way for that to still come about?
 
I'm interested in a Russian-Danish union. The way you've phrased it makes it sound like nobody but Russia would want that; is there any way for that to still come about?

The Russians would definitely want it, but everyone else would be opposed. The Stately Quadrille and the Balance of Power politics that were so important at this time means the Great Powers would come together to oppose any Russian attempts to claim the throne. I can see Paul being very interested in this adventure despite the opposition, and would probably remove Russian troops from Prussia as did OTL, but instead to pursue his claims to the Danish throne. Might hasten the coup against him, if the Russian officers see his attempt to take Denmark as fallacy when opposed by both Britain and France.

I could see France supporting the Swedish King, as Sweden was practically a French satrap throughout this period--although with all the conflicts going on, I'm not sure how much support they'd be able to count on. If Louis XV was keen to push French subsidies through to Sweden, it might make French finances a little worse.

I think the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel would be the likely successor in this case, probably enthroned through any treaty ending the Seven Years War. He could certainly rely on British support who would oppose the King of Sweden and the Russian Emperor; while Prussia would be opposed certainly, it'd better than Sweden or Russia taking Denmark. It would certainly becoming another battlefield in the Seven Years War and would be quite interesting.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I'm interested in a Russian-Danish union. The way you've phrased it makes it sound like nobody but Russia would want that; is there any way for that to still come about?

Honestly it's quite hard, the Russian claims are one of the weakest, but they could still force it through military, but I'm not sure they would be able to do it. Honestly it easier to make the Oldenburgs inheriate Russia that the Romanovs inheriate Denmark. You just need Peter III mother to marry Christian VI of Denmark rather than Karl Frederik of Gottorp. In that case we may see a Russian-Danish union.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
The Russians would definitely want it, but everyone else would be opposed. The Stately Quadrille and the Balance of Power politics that were so important at this time means the Great Powers would come together to oppose any Russian attempts to claim the throne. I can see Paul being very interested in this adventure despite the opposition, and would probably remove Russian troops from Prussia as did OTL, but instead to pursue his claims to the Danish throne. Might hasten the coup against him, if the Russian officers see his attempt to take Denmark as fallacy when opposed by both Britain and France.

I could see France supporting the Swedish King, as Sweden was practically a French satrap throughout this period--although with all the conflicts going on, I'm not sure how much support they'd be able to count on. If Louis XV was keen to push French subsidies through to Sweden, it might make French finances a little worse.

I think the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel would be the likely successor in this case, probably enthroned through any treaty ending the Seven Years War. He could certainly rely on British support who would oppose the King of Sweden and the Russian Emperor; while Prussia would be opposed certainly, it'd better than Sweden or Russia taking Denmark. It would certainly becoming another battlefield in the Seven Years War and would be quite interesting.

Ther problem are that it happens after the 7YW, which make everything a lot more complicated, but I agree the French would likely support the Swedes, while a Russian-British alliance would be on the other side. Austria may very well stay neutral or enter the war on the opposite side of Prussia, if they enter the war.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Never had thought of this option before, but it does indeed hold some interesting potential.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Thanks I think this could be a interesting POD through I'm not sure what the political consequences would be. Ity's only 3 years after the end of 7YW, but on the other hand allowing Sweden to gain Denmark would be a unacceptable, and the Danish court and the king himself would likely support Wilhelm I of Hesse-Kassel as he had been raised in the Danish court.
 
Well, if the prince kills himself in 1765 some arrangement could still be done, as Sophia Magdalena only married the future king of Sweden in 1766, and so ITTL she could be betrothed to someone else. In 1765, from the three daughters of Frederick V only Caroline was already married (to the Elector of Hesse). So I believe that a later POD would be better.

It seems that his depression worsened after 1767, when he started an affair with a courtisan, and even practised self-mutilation. So for the sake of keeping your OP let's assume that he dies that year, when all his sisters were already married to their OTL husbands.

Do you know who would be the claimant from the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg? Their genealotical tree is quite messy, but it seems that the heir would be Frederick Christian I, Duke of Augustenborg. Couldn't he be considered a consensus candidate by the powers, in order to keep the situation calm in the Baltic?
 
Thanks I think this could be a interesting POD through I'm not sure what the political consequences would be. Ity's only 3 years after the end of 7YW, but on the other hand allowing Sweden to gain Denmark would be a unacceptable, and the Danish court and the king himself would likely support Wilhelm I of Hesse-Kassel as he had been raised in the Danish court.


I think it would have to go to Wilhelm. Prussia will be unhappy, but Prussia was already angry at Britain for the way Britain ditched them in the peace talks, no? And everyone was so exhausted that no other alternative seems feasible. The wild card is would the Swedes and Danes want a union?
 
I think it would have to go to Wilhelm. Prussia will be unhappy, but Prussia was already angry at Britain for the way Britain ditched them in the peace talks, no? And everyone was so exhausted that no other alternative seems feasible. The wild card is would the Swedes and Danes want a union?

No, I doubt the Danes would accept the Swedish King, although it might be feasible. Didn't a Danish prince nearly become King of Sweden in the 18th century? France would certainly support Swedish ambitions to claim Denmark, but they are exhausted and broke, so I doubt they'd be able to offer any viable support.
 
Just an idea I had: by 1767 no one of the daughters of Frederick V had given birth yet. Assuming that the Danish nobles might object against the throne going to a woman, the nearest male relative of the Danish king at the time would be would be exactly the prince (and future Tsar) Paul of Russia. After him, the nearest would be the king of Sweden himself, Adolf Frederick, and his brother Frederick August, Duke of Oldenburg.

But as you said, the Russian claim would be very weak. And anyway, would the Russians even make pressure for their claim? After all, I doubt that Catherine II would want to make the son of the husband she hated so much King of Denmark.
 

Susano

Banned
The big problem are that this are rigth after the 7YW, does any one want a new big war, on the other hand a Danish-Swedish union would be a nigthmare for both the British and Russians, while Hesse-Kassel would be incredible strengthen by a union with Denmark, something which neither the Hohenzollern or Wittelbach would want. A Russian-Danish union would be a nigthmare for everybody but the Russians. So likely war it is.

Hesse-Kassel was usually allied to Prussia, so I dont see the worry. I mean, the size difference between Denmark and H-K is such that it de facto would be Denmark getting Hesse-Kassel, and thats not all that big of a territorial acquisition. Prussia might rather cherish the chance to get what has remained of Swedish Pommerania, I think.

However, I fail to see how a succession war could realistically come about. The claims of the younger daughters are incredibly weak. Usually succession wars over female successions came about due to the principles of "proximity of the body" and "dynastic seniority clashing. This doesnt apply here.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Well, if the prince kills himself in 1765 some arrangement could still be done, as Sophia Magdalena only married the future king of Sweden in 1766, and so ITTL she could be betrothed to someone else. In 1765, from the three daughters of Frederick V only Caroline was already married (to the Elector of Hesse). So I believe that a later POD would be better.

It seems that his depression worsened after 1767, when he started an affair with a courtisan, and even practised self-mutilation. So for the sake of keeping your OP let's assume that he dies that year, when all his sisters were already married to their OTL husbands.

Good suggestion let move it to 1767, else we would just see a different husband for the eldest dauther (likely one of the Sönderburg sidelines)

Do you know who would be the claimant from the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg? Their genealotical tree is quite messy, but it seems that the heir would be Frederick Christian I, Duke of Augustenborg. Couldn't he be considered a consensus candidate by the powers, in order to keep the situation calm in the Baltic?

Danish inherience was weird simply because until 1660 it was a elective monarchy and after that it was directly inheriate in main Oldenburg line, it was only in 1839 we see a cousin inheriate the crown rather than a son and the change in dynasty 1863 to the Glücksburgs would have been unlikely if Christian IX hadn't been married to the closest relative to former king.

At this point the Augustenburgs wasn't very closely related to the royal family. So I think they're a unlikely compromise especially because the Swedish claim are very good, and they get nothing for backing down.

I think it would have to go to Wilhelm. Prussia will be unhappy, but Prussia was already angry at Britain for the way Britain ditched them in the peace talks, no? And everyone was so exhausted that no other alternative seems feasible. The wild card is would the Swedes and Danes want a union?

No the Swedes would likely (the Swedish king was relative strong at this point), but the Danes would likely not. I personal think Wilhelm would be the best compromise candidate too. The problem are that while Copenhagen at this point are the biggest city in Norden, Stockholm are so strong that power would move there. Denmark-Norway was at this point more or less the Kingdom of Copenhagen and its possesions, and the Copenhagen burghers was incredible strong position as the main base of the monarchy, a union with Sweden would weaken both them and the noble estate. Which more less would unify the opposition to Swedish rule, and no other powergroup was strong enough to stand against (Copenhagen) burgher-noble alliance.

No, I doubt the Danes would accept the Swedish King, although it might be feasible. Didn't a Danish prince nearly become King of Sweden in the 18th century? France would certainly support Swedish ambitions to claim Denmark, but they are exhausted and broke, so I doubt they'd be able to offer any viable support.

On the other hand the French always seem willing to waste money on foreign adventure, if it could improve their position, and a Swedish Denmark and Holstein would significant weaken the British allies in Germany and making it possible to cut off the British from the Baltic trade in case of war.

Just an idea I had: by 1767 no one of the daughters of Frederick V had given birth yet. Assuming that the Danish nobles might object against the throne going to a woman, the nearest male relative of the Danish king at the time would be would be exactly the prince (and future Tsar) Paul of Russia. After him, the nearest would be the king of Sweden himself, Adolf Frederick, and his brother Frederick August, Duke of Oldenburg.

I doubt anyone really wished a Romanov on the throne after Peter III of Russias behaviour, through they would likely think it through and would prefer it to a Swedish union.

But as you said, the Russian claim would be very weak. And anyway, would the Russians even make pressure for their claim? After all, I doubt that Catherine II would want to make the son of the husband she hated so much King of Denmark.

I think she would if she could become regent, but in the end Denmark are likely not worth the war it would cost for Russia, especially because she would have a large risk of not getting the regency or the crown for her son.

Hesse-Kassel was usually allied to Prussia, so I dont see the worry. I mean, the size difference between Denmark and H-K is such that it de facto would be Denmark getting Hesse-Kassel, and thats not all that big of a territorial acquisition. Prussia might rather cherish the chance to get what has remained of Swedish Pommerania, I think.

The problem are that Hesse-Kassel plus Denmark-Norway (and Holstein and Oldenburg) would be comparative in population size to Prussia and richer. Of course I think you're rigth Prussia would likely see some easy gain from Sweden as a good idea.

However, I fail to see how a succession war could realistically come about. The claims of the younger daughters are incredibly weak. Usually succession wars over female successions came about due to the principles of "proximity of the body" and "dynastic seniority clashing. This doesnt apply here.

Except that Sweden inheriate would be unacceptable to both UK and Russia, and you need to go back to Frederik III whom died in 1670 to find a Danish kings whose children beside the heir got any legitime children whom survived to adulthood, not a daugther or second son produced in a century legitime children whom survived to adulthood. This mean that the Swedish kings had the best claim.
 
Just an idea (that I'm not sure if it would be likely): assuming that the Danish decide not to accept any of the candidates, could the Danish make Charlotte Amalie of Denmark, an aunt of Frederick V, as Queen of Denmark until the problem of the succession is solved?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Just an idea (that I'm not sure if it would be likely): assuming that the Danish decide not to accept any of the candidates, could the Danish make Charlotte Amalie of Denmark, an aunt of Frederick V, as Queen of Denmark until the problem of the succession is solved?

No it's one of the few point where Danish inherience seem rather clear, we didn't have female monarchs, and before you mention Margrethe I of Denmark, Norway and Sweden, while we call her queen, technical she was never queen of Denmark, she was regent for her son, and after his death (there is a good chance she murdered him), no one was brave enough to tell her that she couldn't be regent anymore. There simply lack a legitime reason to make her monarch or regent. Honestly I think one Frederiks V bastards would be more likely, but that's still very very unlikely.
 
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