It's irrilevant that they believe it or not, the choice are let them do it and trying to mantain an official neutrality or become a member of the entente (as they are already in very close contact of the Axis) or fight the entente and invite the URSS and the Nazis...sure not that great choice and as i said they are between the rock and the hard place still is neither simple or automatic.
War makes for Strange Bedfellows – A Second World War timeline
- Thread starter BurkeanLibCon
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It's irrilevant that they believe it or not, the choice are let them do it and trying to mantain an official neutrality or become a member of the entente (as they are already in very close contact of the Axis) or fight the entente and invite the URSS and the Nazis...sure not that great choice and as i said they are between the rock and the hard place still is neither simple or automatic.
ferdi254
Banned
Well if you let troops of one side in the war occupy a part of your land and do not fight back you are dejure already a cobelligerent of hhat side and no longer a neutra state. The Swedes have but two choices, fight on the Russian/German side or fight on the allied side, all else has ceased to exist.
And Brits made that choice for Swedes. Sweden just wanted be out of this shotstorm but Brits disagreed.
Best what Brits can do at this point is just admit that since war between Finland and Soviet Union is over, their any justification stay on the country is even in best very questionable and then just leave Sweden. Norway is anyway stragtegically bit more problematic. And even better if Britain try fix damaged relationships and perhaps pay some reparations to Sweden.
Just wondering what are reactions of USA for this.
I’m thinking of rewriting part of the last update, in particular the part regarding Finland. What do you guys think?
Besides the fact that there is going to be more mines than liquid water in the Baltic sea and they'd have to run a gauntlet of Luftwaffe aircraft the whole way, oh and its March so probably a ton of ice everywhere still, so the port may not even be usable, and they have to do that for every single supply ship they want to get through, it should be doable.
I agree, but I don't see how the status of the Baltic has anything to do with Petsamo - and I strongly doubt that at this point the Reds are going to let the Luftwaffe anywhere close to operational striking range of Petsamo. The ice may be a problem but I'd have to check when it clears.
Hi, I am really enjoying your timeline. I do not think you should rewrite the Winter War at all. The Winter War oversimplified can be divided into two parts. The first part is where the Soviets did everything wrong. The second part is where they did everything right. Many of the generals used in the second part turned out to be very good. More importantly they worked out massed artillery. Any thing the Allies send into Finland during the second part is going to be destroyed. Finland was at the end of their strength which is why they unwillingly agreed to terms. The Soviets were clearly willing to spend what it took and had a lot more men and material available.
A couple thoughts. No one's performance in 1939 to 1940 really reached the level of competence. Britain is also short on material. After Dunkirk England had the American government send 900,000 rifles and still had to ask American civilians to donate rifles, pistols and binoculars. Since the Phony War is still going on all the British equipment is still in France. Sweden and Norway having to be occupied takes up more equipment roughly what was used in the Norway campaign perhaps. England is or will be fighting (and winning) the East Africa campaign at this time and the Egypt campaign. Shipping and material will both be in short supply. Germany can and probably will close the Baltic even after the ice melts. As far as the ice situation in the north Churchill planned to invade Finland (Operation Jupiter?) in October so I think ice there will not be a problem.
I hope this information helps. Not trying to tell you what to do with your timeline. I like how you are going about this. Keep up the good work.
My bad. There must be multiple Petsamos then because google maps pointed me to a place NW of Saint Petersburg.
Yeah the Petsamo we think of in the Winter War is now called Pechengsky District in Russia. It's main city is Nikel
Next update will be out in the next few days. After that, you may have to wait a bit longer for the next one as I have important studies to get through. Don't worry though, I won't let this timeline die.
Chapter 8 - Married to the Soldier Mob
Chapter 8 – Married to the Soldier Mob
Political Fallout from Scandinavia
March 1940
Political Fallout from Scandinavia
March 1940
The invasions of Norway and Sweden had sent the geopolitical world into frenzy. News of the attack reached Berlin early on the morning of 9 March. The news caught Germany’s leadership completely off guard. Norway had been Germany’s main target for intervention in Scandinavia. Indeed, Germany had her own plans to invade Norway, codenamed Operation Weserübung. However, the plan was rendered moot as any landing troops would be slaughtered without the element of surprise the Allies had taken advantage of. Hitler’s death in February 1940 had worsened matters, as the Führer had died before naming who would command the operation. It wasn’t until the 29th that command of Weserübung was given to General Nikolaus von Falkenhorst [1], a commander experienced in Arctic warfare from serving in Finland during the Great War. The delay left very little time for Falkenhorst to react to the Allied attack. The situation in Sweden also worried the German leadership. If the iron ore from Sweden was cut off, the German war effort would be severely crippled. They couldn't let Sweden fall. Later that day, Göring delivered a speech to the Reichstag castigating the British and French, condemning their “monstrous violation of Swedish and Norwegian neutrality...completely ignoring their governments’ wishes”. Göring then proceeded to offer “military and economic support to any state that wishes to protect themselves against British aggression”. The statement was interpreted by Britain and France as an offer of alliance to Sweden, possibly Denmark as well.
General Nikolaus von Falkenhorst
In Moscow, Stalin also condemned the "unprovoked" attack on Scandinavia. Well aware of the PR hit from his own attack on Finland, he was keen to stress that the Soviets had only acted in “self-defence against Finnish attack”, referring to the shelling of Mainila. His defence wouldn't stand in an honest court, but at least the world was now facing towards Britain and away from him. Stalin was still concerned, however. On 27 February 1940, an unmarked Lockheed Model 14 Super Electra reconnaissance aircraft from RAF Habbaniya overflowing Soviet airspace over Azerbaijan had encountered anti-aircraft fire and a Soviet fighter had attempted an interception before the aircraft got away. This increased Soviet fears that the Allies may try to disrupt oil production in the Caucasus [2]. Coupled with the deployment of British forces in Norway, and Stalin’s fear of encirclement of the Soviet Union being appeared to be coming true. There were two main options Stalin could choose at this point. He could either try to open peace talks with the British as neither Britain nor Russian forces had actually fought one another on land, nor was he an official ally of Germany. The other option was to strengthen his relations with Germany, turning the existing German-Soviet economic and territorial agreements into a fully-fledged military alliance against the British and the French. Stalin chose to keep his options open and wait a little longer to see what would happen.
Joseph Stalin, General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union
Oil refinery at Baku, c.1912
Lockheed Model 14 Super Electra, a similar one to the reconnaissance plane buzzed by the Soviets.
The situation in Sweden was also changing. The frontlines were hardly moving given the harsh climate and the difficulty of supplying troops, with the frontline settling outside the town of Björkliden. Neither side had a large air presence in the area either, but the British had better planes such as the Hawker Hurricane which could inflict greater damage on their Swedish counterparts. When the offer of assistance from Germany was received on 16 March, Stockholm accepted the offer. Over the next two weeks, Germany’s 10th Air Corps under the command of General der Fleiger Hans Geisler stationed themselves inside Swedish territory. The deployment made the British and Allied situation even worse as the RAF’s capabilities would be stretched thin operating against German planes in central and southern Sweden. As of now, no German ground troops were deployed in Sweden.
To the south, the Danish government was extremely concerned by the situation. Since the end of the Great War, the Danes had held a pacifistic foreign policy directed towards neutrality and even unilateral disarmament. Since the outbreak of war in September 1939, Danish troops were pulled back from the border to avoid allowing Germany a casus belli to invade. In some regards, the fears were unfounded as the Germans had no immediate plans to invade Denmark, instead planning to seize Danish airfields by diplomatic means [3]. The invasion of Norway had disrupted this policy. With British troops to the north, a resistant Sweden to the east and Germany to her south, Danish neutrality looked all but certain to be violated. The Kriegsmarine wished to secure Danish ports to outflank the British blockade and make access to the Atlantic easier. The Luftwaffe also wised to control Denmark’s airfields in order to dislodge the British from Norway and for easier access to Sweden should it be needed. The German leadership was therefore determined to gain control of Denmark’s facilities at almost any cost. However, Göring wished to take advantage of the damage done to the Allies and was initially reluctant to invade the small northern kingdom and negotiations were initiated instead. Eventually, however, it was realised that military action would have to be taken and a plan was drawn up. However, the plan – codenamed Operation Hindenburg – did not call for ground invasion, but a series of aerial strikes to take out the Danish Army Air Service. It was believed that a quick strike would be enough to scare the Danish government into cooperation.
At 06:20 local time on 17 March, Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Bf 110s appeared over Værløse Airbase, where the entire four squadron of the Danish Army Air Service was located. As the aircraft approached, a Focker C.V–E reconnaissance aircraft was attempting to get airborne. However, it was shot down by Hauptmann Wolfgang Falck at an altitude of 50 meters, killing both crew members [4]. The Bf 110s then proceeded to strafe the base under heavy anti-aircraft fire. They managed to destroy 14 aircraft and badly damaged a further 11 as they taxied for take-off. Most of the Danish air force had been wiped out in an instant [5].
Destroyed Focker C.Vs at Værløse following the German raid
News reached the government in Copenhagen at around 06:40. Immediately, the government was called to Amalienborg Palace for discussions with King Christian X and commander-in-chief Lieutenant General William Prior.
Lieutenant General William Wain Prior, Chief of the Royal Danish Army
During the discussions, several formations of Heinkel He 111 bombers flew over Copenhagen dropping a series of leaflets known as "OPROP!", explaining that Germany was taking pre-emptive action to protect Danish neutrality and independence from "British warmongering". The threat to the Danish government was clear, surrrender or the Luftwaffe would bomb civilian cities. The government understood that the military situation was hopeless. Mainland Denmark had no major natural obstacles where drawn-out resistance could be sustained, and the destruction of the air force left cities vulnerable to unopposed bombardment, the prospect of which terrified the government. With the option available to them, only Prior favoured continued resistance. Stauning contacted German ambassador, Cécil von Renthe-Fink, to inform him that resistance would cease Denmark would accept German conditions for a ceasefire, which came into force at 07:12 that morning. After just 52 minutes, Denmark had been brought to heel, with just 11 Danish deaths and not a single German one. Denmark would spend the rest of the war under German occupation. Britain responded three days later by occupying the Faroe Islands.
Cécil von Renthe-Fink, German Ambassador to Denmark
Thorvald Stauning, Prime Minister of Denmark
Northern Europe by the end of March 1940
Meanwhile, in Berlin, planning was continuing for operations on a new front. Across the English Channel, the Allies were also planning their next moves.
Announcement
Firstly, apologies for the late updates but I've been very busy recently. Once I've pushed through this important period of studying, I'll try and return to a more predictable update schedule.
Footnotes
- [1] In OTL, Falkenhorst was named on the 21st. Here, the delay caused by Hitler’s death (combined with the Allied invasion a week after his appointment ITTL) scuppers the operation completely.
- [2] A similar incident took place on 5 April 1940 in OTL when a Lockheed Super Electra was intercepted over Batumi.
- [3] This was Germany’s initial plan in OTL. Hitler’s decision to invade Denmark wasn’t made until 1 March 1940 OTL. Here, Hitler dies in February and the Nazi leadership have been more concerned with restoring order in the meantime.
- [4] This happened during OTL's invasion of Denmark.
- [5] In OTL, 11 aircraft were destroyed and 14 were heavily damaged.
Comments?
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Fascinating turn here. I wonder how this much lighter conquest of Denmark in light of Britain and France violating Scandinavian neutrality will impact resistance movements in Denmark? The lesser resistance, the more free manpower Germany has. Also, how will this impact public opinion in the US? Could FDRs own support of the WAllies scuttle his 1940 re-election bid?
This Scandinavian issue has quiet intresting affect to Scandinavian politics. If Germany loses WW2 and NATO is still established, Denmark might be more unwillingful to join since Britain and France would are founders. And since Brits are holding iron ore of Northern Sweden, Germans can't get their iron.
But this has great impact for US-British relations. Americans hardly are happy over violating of neutrality of Scandinavian nations. This hardly has much of affect to the election but FDR is probably enforced to take distance from Britain.
Whatever, Chamberlain's reputation is still totally ruined. Invasion of neutral democratic country is not going ever end well. Might be that Labour is not very intrested joining to Chamberlain's successor's coalition government at least if next PM is not willingful to withdraw from Sweden and Norway. But this is probably now impossible solution since Sweden is going to be closer with Germany. But about this Brits can only blame themselves.
If the wallies won and the crime of the nazi and soviet come to light all the scandinavian nations will not even say 'but' due to a mix of realpolitick and their immense desire to make the world forget the fact that they basically supported regimes that forced humanity to create new definition of evil.
The Sweden situation was bad...but they honestly have only themself to blame in the end, they basically gone for the ostrich option and found now that they have become a battlefield and are basically allied with the most evil regime in history
Honestly that's for the better, again a lot of how the Winter War developed was due to an initial desire to not expand the conflict with the URSS and by the time of the planned Operation Pike this was thought was gone almost to the toilet has Stalin basically was a co-belligerant of Germany (or the plan was to use the Baku bombing as a demostrative attack to make Uncle Joe rethink his relationships).
Here things are much more different and the URSS is already a full ally of Germany so it's in the Finnish interest cozy up with the Entente and in the Entente interest ally with Finland...basically it's ASB thinking that the situation will go as OTL.
Once the Wallies have reached Norway Stalin will feel an extreme urgency to end the war and this term really really really don't put a lot of pressure on any Finnish goverment to sign it in this current situation, especially after the abysmal performance of the Soviet armed forces (and any Wallied help that had reached Finland will have made such loss even worse)*
*yes even with some more external help things can go military as OTL but the soviet loss will be a lot lot higher (OTL there were between 320.000 and 380.000 casualities and tons and tons of material)
ferdi254
Banned
Even OTL hardly anyone is blaming the Fins for allying with Adolf. Everybody accepts that they had a choice between Scylla and Charybdis.
And so has Sweden ITTL. Fight on the UK side and get utterly crashed and ruined or fight the UK and not have millions of their own population getting killed.
And the crimes of the Nazis 41-45 can hardly be blamed on Swedish politicians in 40.
And so has Sweden ITTL. Fight on the UK side and get utterly crashed and ruined or fight the UK and not have millions of their own population getting killed.
And the crimes of the Nazis 41-45 can hardly be blamed on Swedish politicians in 40.
I’m loving the timeline so far – a very plausible work of alternate history. Keep it up!