War in the East, peace in the west

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This thread is an offspring of this thread.


It is about, in particular, the development of the German Wehrmacht had peace or at least armistice between Germany and Great Britain been achieved before even the onset of the Kanalkampf. This is not about whether or not Great Britain would ever had signed a peace treaty with Hitler or even agree to an armistice, there are plenty of other threads around for that kind of discussion.


The purpose of this discussion is to try and estimate the strength of the Wehrmacht for a Barbarossa scenario had not the Battle of Britain, Operation Marita, Operation Sonnenblume etc. never taken place and all those losses suffered during these military operations are instead added into a Barbarossa OOB.


First is to establish the OTL military strength of the German Heer and Luftwaffe (the Kriegsmarine played at best a marginal role, so there's no real need to discuss it at the moment) at Barbarossa but include all those forces deployed to other theaters. Me and wiking has had a discussion going on about this via PM this is the result of that discussion.


I'll continually update the Heer and Luftwaffe posts on the first page to reflect the evolved discussion as it progress with the ultimate goal of creating a scenario for War in the East (hence the thread title)and potentially writing a timeline based based on wargaming that scenario.
 

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Banned
Luftwaffe

Here's my idea of how the added forces would be deployed with the three Luftflotten in anticipation of Barbarossa.



Luftflotte 1
2.(F)/Ob.d.L. (7xJu 88D-4, 3XDo 215B)
KGr zbV 106 (44xJu 52)
KG zbV 1 (4xJu 88A, 109xJu 52)
KG zbV 108 (26xJu 52)
KGr 806 (30xJu 52)


I.Fliegerkorps - Ostpreußen
KG 1 'Hindenburg' (124xJu 88A)
KG 76 (124xJu 88A)
KG 77 (124xJu 88A)
JG 54 (129xBf 109F)
5.(F)/122 (8xJu 88A, 3xBf 110)
3.(F)/22 (8xBf 110)


III.Fliegerkorps - Ostpreußen
JG 1 (124xBf 109F)
KG 28 (124xHe-111H)
KGr 100 (40xHe 111)
KGr 606 (40xJu 88A)
3.(H)/122 (7xJu 88, 3xBf 110)


Luftflotte 2
JG 53 (124xBf 109F)
2.(F)/122 (8xJu 88A, 3xBf 110, 2x Bf 109E)
IV./KG zbV 1 (40xJu 52)


II.Fliegerkorps – Central Poland
KG 3 'Blitz' (124xJu 88A,)
KG 53 'Legion Condor' (124 He-111H)
StG 77 (120 Ju 87B, 6xBf 110)
SKG 210 (124xBf 110)
JG 51 (160xBf 109F)
1.(F)/122 (7xJu 88A/D, 3xBf 110)
KGr zbV 102 (43xJu 52)
KGr zbV 105 (53?xJu 52)


VIII.Fliegerkorps – Central Poland
KG 2 'Holzhammer' (86xJu 88A, 40xHe 111H)
StG 1 (109xJu 87B, 6xBf 110)
StG 2 (77xJu 87B&R, 6xBf 110)
II (Sch.)/LG 2 (40xBf 109C&E)
10. (Sch.)/LG 2 (13xHS 123A)
ZG 26 (124x Bf 110C&E)
JG 27 (124xBf 109E)
2.(F)11


IX.Fliegerkorps – Central Poland
JG 2 (124x Bf 109F)
LG 1 (124x Ju 88A)
KG 26 'Löwen' (124xHe-111H)
ZG 2 (124xBf 110)
Aufkl.Gr 126 (40x He 60 & Ar 196)
11 Engr./LG 1 (12xHe-111H)
12 EngGr./LG 1 (12xHe-111H)
2.(F)/123 (12xJu 88D-1)




Luftflotte 4
JG 52 (124xBf 109F)
KGr zbV 104 (41xJu 52)
KGr zbV 50 (44xJu 52)
KG zbV 9 (25xJu 52)
KG zbV 172 (44xJu 52)
4.(F)/122 (8xJu 88, 3xBf 110)


IV.Fliegerkorps – Northeast Romania
KG 27 'Boelcke' (124xHe 111H)
KG 4 'General Wever' (124xHe 111H)
JG 77 (84xBf 109F, 40xBf109E)
I (Sch.)/LG 2 (40xBf109E)
3.(F)/121


V.Fliegerkorps - Southern Poland
KG 51 'Edelweiß' (124xJu 88A)
KG 54 'Totenkopf' (124xJu 88A)
KG 55 'Greif' (124xHe 111H)
JG 3 (124xBf 109F)
StG 3 (120xJu 87B-1, 4xBf 110)
4.(F)/121


X.Fliegerkorps – Eastern Romania
JG 26 (124xBf 109F)
IV (St.)/LG 1 (42xJu 87B/R)
KG 30 'Adler' (124xJu 88A)
KG 40 (21xFW 200C, 43XDo 217E, 40xHe 111)
ZG 76 (124xBf 110)
3.(F)/122


Extra:
NJG 2 (36xJu 88C, 6XDo 17Z)
5XDo 215
361XDo 17Z
14xJu 88
183xHe 111
127xBf 110
516xBf 109


Not counting recon aircrafts
Bf 109 = 1361
Bf 110 = 518
He 111 = 799
Ju 88 = 1105
Ju 87 = 468
Do 17 = 0
FW 200C = 21
Do 217 = 43


Total: 4315 combat aircraft, this is total aircrafts not those available. There's a 10-15% decrease in most units at any one time due to maintenance or other factors.
Ju 52 = 499
 
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Banned
Heer

WB Südost

LXV Höh.Kdo (Serbien)
704.Infanterie-Division => 104. Jäger-Division (1943-04-01)
714.Infanterie-Division => 114. Jäger-Division (1943-04-01)
717.Infanterie-Division => 117. Jäger-Division (1943-04-01)
718.Infanterie-Division => 118. Jäger-Division (1943-04-01)

WB Norwegen – v. Falkenhorst
XXXIII – Höh.Kdo (Norway)
710.Infanterie-Division (bod)
715.Infanterie-Division (bod)
LXX Höh.Kdo (Norway)
702.Infanterie-Division (bod)
713.Infanterie-Division (bod)

Befehlsstelle Finland
XXXVI Höh.Kdo
163.Infanterie-Division
169.Infanterie-Division
SS-Nord*

Norwegen - Dietl
2.Gebirgsjäger-Division
3.Gebirgsjäger-Division

15.Armee – Haase (France and low-countries)
XXXII.Höh.Kdo
82.Infanterie-Division – rebuilding
302.Infanterie-Division (bod), (field division in October -42)
305.Infanterie-Division (bod), (field division February -42)
327.Infanterie-Division (bod), (field division in March -43)
332.Infanterie-Division (bod), (field division in October -42)
333.Infanterie-Division (bod), (field division in February -43)
335.Infanterie-Division (bod), (field division in January -43)
337.Infanterie-Division (bod), (field division in November -43)
336. Infanterie-Division (bod), (field division in May -42)
339.Infanterie-Division (bod), (field division in August -41)
342.Infanterie-Division (bod), (field division in February -42)
708.Infanterie-Division (bod)
709.Infanterie-Division (bod)
711.Infanterie-Division (bod)
712.Infanterie-Division (bod)
716.Infanterie-Division (bod)
719.Infanterie-Division (bod)

Heeresgruppe Nord - v.Leeb
22.Luftlande-Division
7.Flieger-Division
XXIII.A.K.
206. Infanterie-Division
251. Infanterie-Division
254. Infanterie-Division
101 RHG
207. Sicherungs-Division
281. Sicherungs-Division
285. Sicherungs-Division

16.Armee – Busch
253. Infanterie-Division
II.A.K.
12.Infanterie-Division
32.Infanterie-Division
121.Infanterie-Division
X.A.K.
30.Infanterie-Division
126.Infanterie-Division
XXVIII.A.K
122.Infanterie-Division
123.Infanterie-Division

18.Armee – v.Küchler
291.Infanterie-Division
I.A.K.
1.Infanterie-Division
11.Infanterie-Division
21.Infanterie-Division
XXVI.A.K.
61.Infanterie-Division
217.Infanterie-Division
XXXVIII.A.K.
58.Infanterie-Division
69.Infanterie-Division

Panzergruppe 4 – Hoepner
SS-Totenkopf
XXXXI.A.K. (mot)
1.Panzer-Division
6.Panzer-Division
36.Infanterie-Division (mot)
269.Infanterie-Division
LVI.A.K. (mot)
8.Panzer-Division
3.Infanterie-Division (mot)
290.Infanterie-Division
XV.A.K. (mot) – Rommel
5.Leicht-Division (mot)
15.Panzer-Division
361.Infanterie-Regiment (mot)
125.Infanterie-Regiment (mot)

Heeresgruppe Mitte – v.Bock
102.RHG
221.Sicherungs-Division
286.Sicherungs-Division
403.Sicherungs-Division
LIII.A.K.
181.Infanterie-Division
293.Infanterie-Division

4.Armee – v.Kluge
VII.A.K.
7.Infanterie-Division
23.Infanterie-Division
258.Infanterie-Division
268.Infanterie-Division
IX.A.K.
137.Infanterie-Division
263.Infanterie-Division
292.Infanterie-Division
XIII.A.K.
17.Infanterie-Division
78.Infanterie-Division
XXXXIII.A.K.
131.Infanterie-Division
134.Infanterie-Division
252.Infanterie-Division

9.Armee – Strauss
V.A.K.
5.Infanterie-Division
35.Infanterie-Division
VI.A.K.
6.Infanterie-Division
26.Infanterie-Division
VIII.A.K.
8.Infanterie-Division
28.Infanterie-Division
161.Infanterie-Division
XX.A.K.
162.Infanterie-Division
256.Infanterie-Division

Panzergruppe 2 – Guderian
XII.A.K.
31.Infanterie-Division
34.Infanterie-Division
45.Infanterie-Division
XXIV.A.K. (mot)
10.Infanterie-Division (mot)
1.Kavallerie-Division
255.Infanterie-Division
267.Infanterie-Division
3.Panzer-Division
4.Panzer-Division
XXXXVI.A.K. (mot)
10.Panzer-Division
SS-Reich
Großdeutschland Infanterie-Regiment (mot)
XXXXVII.A.K. (mot)
17.Panzer-Division
18.Panzer-Division
29.Infanterie-Division (mot)
167. Infanterie-Division

Panzergruppe 3 – Hoth
XXXIX.A.K. (mot)
7.Panzer-Division
20.Panzer-Division
14.Infanterie-Division (mot)
20.Infanterie-Division (mot)
LVII.A.K. (mot)
12.Panzer-Division
19.Panzer-Division
18.Infanterie-Division (mot)
XXXX.A.K. (mot)
2.Panzer-Division
5.Panzer-Division

Heeresgruppe Süd – v.Rundstedt
99.Jäger-Division
103 RHG
213.Sicherungs-Division
444.Sicherungs-Division
454.Sicherungs-Division

6.Armee – v.Reichenau
298. Infanterie-Division
XVI.A.K.
56.Infanterie-Division
62.Infanterie-Division
XXIX.A.K.
44.Infanterie-Division
111.Infanterie-Division
299.Infanterie-Division
XXXXIV.A.K.
9.Infanterie-Division
297.Infanterie-Division
LV.A.K.
168.Infanterie-Division
75.Infanterie-Division

11.Armee – v.Schobert
XI.A.K.
76.Infanterie-Division
239.Infanterie-Division
XXX.A.K.
93.Infanterie-Division
198.Infanterie-Division
LIV.A.K.
60.Infanterie-Division
170.Infanterie-Division
XVIII – Gebirgskorps
5.Gebirgsjäger-Division
6.Gebirgsjäger-Division

17.Armee – v.Stülpnagel
97.Jäger-Division
100.Jäger-Division
IV.A.K.
24.Infanterie-Division
71.Infanterie-Division
262.Infanterie-Division
295.Infanterie-Division
296.Infanterie-Division
XXXXIX.Geb.A.K.
68.Infanterie-Division
1.Gebirgsjäger-Division
4.Gebirgsjäger-Division
LII.A.K.
101.Jäger-Division

Panzergruppe 1 – v.Kleist
16.Infanterie-Division (mot)
25.Infanterie-Division (mot)
LSSAH
III.A.K. (mot)
13.Panzer-Division
14.Panzer-Division
XIV.A.K. (mot)
9.Panzer-Division
SS-Wiking
XXXXVIII.A.K. (mot)
11.Panzer-Division
16-Panzer-Division
57.Infanterie-Division

OKH Reserve
L.A.K.
86.Infanterie-Division
Polizei

1.Armee (Nord) – List
XXVII.A.K.
73.Infanterie-Division
94.Infanterie-Division
98.Infanterie-Division
XXXV.A.K.
15.Infanterie-Division
112.Infanterie-Division
197.Infanterie-Division
XXXXV.A.K.
46.Infanterie-Division
215.Infanterie-Division
260.Infanterie-Division

2.Armee (Mitte) – v.Weichs
559.Sicherungs-Division
XXXXII.A.K.
87.Infanterie-Division
102.Infanterie-Division
129.Infanterie-Division
XXXXII.A.K.
102.Infanterie-Division
129.Infanterie-Division
183.Infanterie-Division
LI.A.K.
79.Infanterie-Division
95.Infanterie-Division
113.Infanterie-Division

7.Armee (Süd) – v.Witzleben
96.Infanterie-Division
XXV.A.K.
125.Infanterie-Division
205.Infanterie-Division
211.Infanterie-Division
XXXI.A.K.
88.Infanterie-Division
212.Infanterie-Division
223.Infanterie-Division
LIX.A.K.
81.Infanterie-Division
246.Infanterie-Division

XXXIV.A.K.
132.Infanterie-Division
196.Infanterie-Division
257.Infanterie-Division

164.Infanterie-Division
199.Infanterie-Division
214.Infanterie-Division
225.Infanterie-Division
294.Infanterie-Division



(bod) = bodenständige (Static unit)
 
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Deleted member 1487

Looks good, but what about Luftflotte 5? It participated in Barbarossa as part of the fighting in Finland/against Murmansk.

Also I think the extra Ju87s would mostly be with AG-South (LF 4), probably 2 Geschwader worth, with any extra beyond that being with AG-North (LF 1). Air Corps X wouldn't be with LF 2 (with AG-Center), as it was a specialized naval unit, so would either be with LF 1 or 4 due to the naval sectors adjacent; as it stood LF 2 didn't have bases for the float planes that X. Luftkorps had. The Bf110s would probably be somewhat evenly distributed with AGs-Center and South getting roughly equivalent numbers, while AG-north gets probably 1 Geschwader at the most. Level bombers and SE fighters would probably be the same. The Ju87s though would be extremely useful for AG-South, as they ran into some serious armor opposition that would have been slaughtered by Stukas had there been any present IOTL. ITTL there would be at least 250 for AG-South, which really helps a lot.

Massive map with granular deployment details:
http://www.krunch.ru/mapsonline.htm

Artwork-showing-a-map-of-deployment-of-German-forces-prior-to-Operation-Barbarossa-22nd-June-1941-0A.jpg


dgfrdgrfgdfr_1.jpg
 

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Banned
Looks good, but what about Luftflotte 5? It participated in Barbarossa as part of the fighting in Finland/against Murmansk.

Also I think the extra Ju87s would mostly be with AG-South (LF 4), probably 2 Geschwader worth, with any extra beyond that being with AG-North (LF 1). Air Corps X wouldn't be with LF 2 (with AG-Center), as it was a specialized naval unit, so would either be with LF 1 or 4 due to the naval sectors adjacent; as it stood LF 2 didn't have bases for the float planes that X. Luftkorps had. The Bf110s would probably be somewhat evenly distributed with AGs-Center and South getting roughly equivalent numbers, while AG-north gets probably 1 Geschwader at the most. Level bombers and SE fighters would probably be the same. The Ju87s though would be extremely useful for AG-South, as they ran into some serious armor opposition that would have been slaughtered by Stukas had there been any present IOTL. ITTL there would be at least 250 for AG-South, which really helps a lot.

Good points, I'll switch the Fliegerkorps around a bit so that the X.FK is used in the Baltic.

Regarding LF 5, I assume that as the peace treaty has been signed it's units would have been distributed among the other Luftflotten. As for operating in Northern Finland/Norway, the infrastructure in the Kirkenes area never really supported operating more then ~50 aircrafts, that is assuming that Norway hasn't also signed a peace treaty and at least become nominally independant. As it is I re-attached those units that historically were there into their parent formations to make it easier to keep track of, if we find that some air support is warrented up there they can be moved back.

In regards to the Ju 87, I moved the StG 3 from the Med and Greece to LF 4, but it's only one Gruppe, the other two hadn't formed yet, the rest of the Ju 87 from the med was from StG 1 and I re-attached those as well to their parent formation.

To be blunt to make it a bit easier to grasp the full picture I re-attached all detachments back to their parent formations.

What's your opinion on NJG 1 & 3? Should they still be ZG ?

I've also been thinking a bit about the losses suffered, might be better to fill out the existing Geschwaders to full nominal strength before any new ones are formed.

I also think that the Do 17Z ought to have been completely phased out from frontline squadrons in favour of the Ju 88A as was planned. It was kept mostly due to production of newer planes couldn't keep up.
 

Deleted member 1487

Good points, I'll switch the Fliegerkorps around a bit so that the X.FK is used in the Baltic.

Regarding LF 5, I assume that as the peace treaty has been signed it's units would have been distributed among the other Luftflotten. As for operating in Northern Finland/Norway, the infrastructure in the Kirkenes area never really supported operating more then ~50 aircrafts, that is assuming that Norway hasn't also signed a peace treaty and at least become nominally independant. As it is I re-attached those units that historically were there into their parent formations to make it easier to keep track of, if we find that some air support is warrented up there they can be moved back.

In regards to the Ju 87, I moved the StG 3 from the Med and Greece to LF 4, but it's only one Gruppe, the other two hadn't formed yet, the rest of the Ju 87 from the med was from StG 1 and I re-attached those as well to their parent formation.

To be blunt to make it a bit easier to grasp the full picture I re-attached all detachments back to their parent formations.

What's your opinion on NJG 1 & 3? Should they still be ZG ?

I've also been thinking a bit about the losses suffered, might be better to fill out the existing Geschwaders to full nominal strength before any new ones are formed.

I also think that the Do 17Z ought to have been completely phased out from frontline squadrons in favour of the Ju 88A as was planned. It was kept mostly due to production of newer planes couldn't keep up.

Sounds good. The X. Luftkorps would probably be in the Black Sea though due to the presence of the KM in the Baltic, which would be a lot stronger and the amount of Kustenflieger (KM air units) already present; LF 4 was short on naval aircraft, so it would probably get the entire Luftkorps, as the X. Luftkorps was a anti-shipping unit. Plus LF 1 would likely get the entire LF 5 if you break it up, which had a lot of naval air units. The Soviet fleet in the Black Sea is going to get it a bit harder than IOTL.

Yes, I think the NJG should still be a ZG including the Ju88Cs. The existing Gesch. should be filled up out of the OTL lost pool first before forming new units; I think there would be totally new Geschwader ITTL given the sheer numbers of aircraft, but also a reserve of aircraft and crew that would fill in the casualties sustained during the campaign to keep the existing units up to snuff; also the LW wouldn't use its training personnel as pilots ITTL given the relative glut of pilots compared to OTL. The Do17 probably would be phased out, but still in service for recon from existing models. It was out of production IOTL in 1940, so the extra Ju88s and He111s would replace them in the KGs, but the recon units would see a lot more of them, though probably some would end up in training units.

Edit:
StG 3 would be filled up for sure, instead of just being a single Gruppe. There would also probably be a StG 4 and 5 created and attached to AG-south.
 
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Banned
Sounds good. The X. Luftkorps would probably be in the Black Sea though due to the presence of the KM in the Baltic, which would be a lot stronger and the amount of Kustenflieger (KM air units) already present; LF 4 was short on naval aircraft, so it would probably get the entire Luftkorps, as the X. Luftkorps was a anti-shipping unit. Plus LF 1 would likely get the entire LF 5 if you break it up, which had a lot of naval air units. The Soviet fleet in the Black Sea is going to get it a bit harder than IOTL.

Not a bad point, but there already is a FK in Romania where it would have to be stationed, maybe switch them? IV.FK to the Baltic and X.FK to Romania?


Edit:
StG 3 would be filled up for sure, instead of just being a single Gruppe. There would also probably be a StG 4 and 5 created and attached to AG-south.
Exactly my thoughts, but I'll wait a bit with creating new units just yet, I want to see how it fills up.

On an unrelated note, found about 32 Do 217E I've missed. They were hiding among KG 2, adding them.
 

Deleted member 1487

Not a bad point, but there already is a FK in Romania where it would have to be stationed, maybe switch them? IV.FK to the Baltic and X.FK to Romania?
Looking at the deployments in Romania they could fit both actually, as a fair bit of X. Korps would be based at naval bases, being float planes. Plus the Romanians needed all the air support they could get. The X. FK would be based more to the south of the IV. FK, as it was already more north oriented in support of the 11th army.

http://www.krunch.ru/mapsonline.htm

Exactly my thoughts, but I'll wait a bit with creating new units just yet, I want to see how it fills up.

On an unrelated note, found about 32 Do 217E I've missed. They were hiding among KG 2, adding them.
I also found that in March 1941 KG 55 had is ErGz. turned into a 4th Gruppe, but was based in Dijon France until 1944; I cannot find it on any OOB, but apparently it was combat ready.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kampfgeschwader_55#Eastern_Front
On 8 March 1941 the Erganzungstaffel was formed into IV. Gruppe, but was deployed to Dijon in France and remained there until 4 May 1944.
 

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Banned
Looking at the deployments in Romania they could fit both actually, as a fair bit of X. Korps would be based at naval bases, being float planes. Plus the Romanians needed all the air support they could get. The X. FK would be based more to the south of the IV. FK, as it was already more north oriented in support of the 11th army.

http://www.krunch.ru/mapsonline.htm
Alright I'll think on it, but not certain that the OKW would want such a concentration of air power in the South, they seemed more focused on the centre.

I also found that in March 1941 KG 55 had is ErGz. turned into a 4th Gruppe, but was based in Dijon France until 1944; I cannot find it on any OOB, but apparently it was combat ready.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kampfgeschwader_55#Eastern_Front

Interesting, very very interesting. I assume the IV./KG 55 would consist of no more the 20-25 planes by Barbarossa, likely He 111.


Also found out some more Luftwaffe losses, from October to December -40 they lost 482 bombers above Great Britain. I assume these are 2-engined bombers, but as no more specifics are given. I'd say we fudge it to 3/7ths are He 111, 3/7ths Ju 88 and 1/7th Do 17. Unless the Do 17 had been completely withdrawn from bombing Southern England by that point, if that's the case might as well split if 50/50 between He 111 and Ju 88.
 

Deleted member 1487

Alright I'll think on it, but not certain that the OKW would want such a concentration of air power in the South, they seemed more focused on the centre.
They were, which is why LF 2 was the most lavishly equipped and the specialist CAS LK was there. That left the other LF relatively under resourced in comparison, so here with the extra airpower they could beef them up, especially given the importance of taking Soviet resources in the Ukraine and threat of the Black Seas Fleet. Having more than double the combat aircraft gives them the opportunity to do this. AG-Center just needed some more of what they had, not another LK.


Interesting, very very interesting. I assume the IV./KG 55 would consist of no more the 20-25 planes by Barbarossa, likely He 111.
I think ration strength was around 30 aircraft per gruppe, so somewhere in there by June.

Also found out some more Luftwaffe losses, from October to December -40 they lost 482 bombers above Great Britain. I assume these are 2-engined bombers, but as no more specifics are given. I'd say we fudge it to 3/7ths are He 111, 3/7ths Ju 88 and 1/7th Do 17. Unless the Do 17 had been completely withdrawn from bombing Southern England by that point, if that's the case might as well split if 50/50 between He 111 and Ju 88.
The Do17 was taken out of production and was in the process of being phased out. Check out Sturmvogel orbats to see what LF 2 and 3 had at their disposal in 1940.
 
hmm

I dont really think this would be a big advantage at all, in fact it might be even harder for the germans to fight the soviets, and here is why:

No surprised red army like OTL when they know the wehrmacht is not busy anywhere else is a huge factor, imo much bigger than a couple hundred airplanes and the DAK added into the forces that invade the east.
 

Deleted member 1487

I dont really think this would be a big advantage at all, in fact it might be even harder for the germans to fight the soviets, and here is why:

No surprised red army like OTL when they know the wehrmacht is not busy anywhere else is a huge factor, imo much bigger than a couple hundred airplanes and the DAK added into the forces that invade the east.

Its far more than just DAK and a few hundred airplanes. In fact its over 3000 extra combat aircraft, which was more than what the LW even had for Barbarossa IOTL (~2500), so the LW for Barbarossa in this scenario would be twice as large as it was IOTL and far, far more experienced without the 3800 aircraft lost IOTL between July 1940-June 1941 on other fronts. Plus without war with Britain the pilots captured by the British would be returned, which was several hundred IIRC. Then on top of that is the lack of a blockade and ability to import; on top of that is all the extra aircraft then not used on other fronts that can be used for Barbarossa ITTL, which would push the combat aircraft available near to triple what it was IOTL.

There would be at least 5000 combat aircraft available ITTL, which was double OTL's total, while the supply elements, the Ju52s, would be more than doubled.

In terms of ground forces its DAK, plus the Fallschirmjager, all the occupation troops used in Yugoslavia, Greece, Crete, and a lot of those used in France, the Netherlands, and Belgium. Plus historically Hitler held back a lot of supplies, transport, and spare parts for other campaigns once Barbarossa was over, which would be available ITTL for Barbarossa and keep forces more operational than IOTL.
 

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I dont really think this would be a big advantage at all, in fact it might be even harder for the germans to fight the soviets, and here is why:

No surprised red army like OTL when they know the wehrmacht is not busy anywhere else is a huge factor, imo much bigger than a couple hundred airplanes and the DAK added into the forces that invade the east.
Thank you for your opinion. I'll take it under very close advisement.

No not really. That's all it is, your opinion.
My opinion is that the Germans would still have achieved operational suprise as the Soviet high command had deemed it to late in the year for the Germans to launch an invasion. This still means that the Red Air Force is caught on the ground and the forward deployed units of the Red Army is caught by suprise, encircled and destroyed. The rest of the debacle that Barbarossa was for the Red Army will then follow withouth much interruption.
 

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L.

There would be at least 5000 combat aircraft available ITTL, which was double OTL's total, while the supply elements, the Ju52s, would be more than doubled.

Yeah I'm up to over 5.000 combat aircrafts after including just the ones lost above the British Isles from July to December 1940. Not counting yet those lost in the Medeterranean or any lost in Western Europe in the Winter/Spring of 1941.
 

Deleted member 1487

Yeah I'm up to over 5.000 combat aircrafts after including just the ones lost above the British Isles from July to December 1940. Not counting yet those lost in the Medeterranean or any lost in Western Europe in the Winter/Spring of 1941.

I was low balling it. Really its much closer to 6000 even without factoring in Ju52 losses.

Also I found 60 lost aircraft in Yugoslavia, which IMHO would still happen ITTL even with peace with Britain, but it would be much less impactful on the Axis because the invasion of Greece won't happen and Italy will take on the harder role in Yugoslavia after the invasion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Yugoslavia#Losses
The Luftwaffe lost approximately 60 aircraft shot down over Yugoslavia, costing the lives of at least 70 aircrew.

Without the Greek part of the invasion and Crete I think a June 15th Barbarossa might well be possible. The ground was dry by then.
 

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Updated the Luftwaffe post, formed the III.Fliegerkorps and attached it to LF 1 in Ostpreußen, HG Nord need the help. IX.FL I moved to Romania as advised. Filled up all units as much as possible.

That leaves:
361XDo 17Z
14xJu 88
183xHe 111
127xBf 110
516xBf 109
From losses and other sources.
Time to start creating additional Geschwaders I guess....
 

Deleted member 1487

Updated the Luftwaffe post, formed the III.Fliegerkorps and attached it to LF 1 in Ostpreußen, HG Nord need the help. IX.FL I moved to Romania as advised. Filled up all units as much as possible.

That leaves:
361XDo 17Z
14xJu 88
183xHe 111
127xBf 110
516xBf 109
From losses and other sources.
Time to start creating additional Geschwaders I guess....

Yep, though the Do17s probably would be dual recon/bombers. You could alternatively keep the remained as a reserve to fill out losses and rotate out guys/units needing a rest.
 

Deleted member 1487

I would also add a ZG to LF 1. I think they would have the FJ troops attached as well, so I'm not sure how that would appear as part of the LF or LK.

LF 4 is definitely getting 3 full Ju87 StG IMHO plus at least two ZG. ZG 2 probably would be with the V. LK.

Are you going to update us when you start running your scenario?
 
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I would also add a ZG to LF 1. I think they would have the FJ troops attached as well, so I'm not sure how that would appear as part of the LF or LK.

I was thinking of creating the ZG 1 from the spares, attaching it to LF 1 is definetly possible

LF 4 is definitely getting 3 full Ju87 StG IMHO plus at least two ZG.

Still tallying up the losses, not sure if there's enough Ju 87's for that, unless they don't ship any to the Italians, which is a distinct possibility. There already is 1 1/3 Geschwader of Ju 87's attached to LF 4

Are you going to update us when you start running your scenario?

Long way off yet, but I will.


Also finally found the Ju 52 losses over Crete, 220 were lost.
 
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