War declared on Germany and the USSR-1939

NomadicSky

Banned
France and the UK declared war on Germany for invading Poland but said nothing about the Soviet invasion, mostly out of not wanting to provoke them. suppose then that allied leaders had bigger stones...

War is declared on both Germany and the Soviet Union in 1939.
 

Cook

Banned
suppose then that allied leaders had bigger stones...

By that I take it you mean: Suppose the Governments of Britain and France, who were not confident of defeating Germany decided to take a holiday from sanity and declare war on the Soviet Union as well?

Not so totally far fetched of course. The British had a plan to land forces in Narvik and cease the northern Swedish Iron Ore mines in 1939, all on the excuse of providing aid to Finland in the Winter War. It probably would have resulted in Norway, Sweden and the Soviet Union all entering the war on Germany’s side.


I imagine things would have gone rather badly for the allies.
 
suppose then that allied leaders had bigger stones.
Well, the three battalions that occupied the Rhineland would have been crushed, and Hitler's government would have faced a crisis some years before 1939. Unless you're proposing installing a whole different set of Allied leaders in between, say, Munich and August 1939.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
There are two decent PODs for this. One is Finland lasting a bit longer, giving the Allies enough time to send the expeditionary force they were planning to dispatch IOTL. Another would be the Allies undertaking their planned air attacks against the Russian oil facilities at Baku (under the theory that the oil from them was supplying the German war effort, which was true).
 

Old Airman

Banned
This might be a positive POD for USSR, as Stalin's paranoia might drive him to put his maximum effort into preparing for defensive war. So, instead of Red Army being relaxed with their pants down in June 1941, it might be actually sitting in the trenches, heavy equipment hidden in endless Belarussian forests and each bridge from Brest to Moscow being prepared for destruction.

P.S. Vulnerability of Western Border had been very well known to Soviet leadership. There was staff games in Spring 1941. Zhukov, playing for Germans, actually inflicted as heavy defeat to Red Army in Barbarossa-like invasion as happened IOTL. However, Stalin didn't believe the war is coming. ITTL he might.

P.P.S. As far as "Hitler-Stalin alliance against the West" idea goes, I think we're firmly in ASB territory. MR was never more than an agreement of convenience.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
As far as "Hitler-Stalin alliance against the West" idea goes, I think we're firmly in ASB territory. MR was never more than an agreement of convenience.

I don't think it's so unlikely as to be ASB. We know that the Allies thought it quite possible that the Soviets might join the war on the Axis side, and that they were preparing military measures against them (the aforementioned intervention on behalf of Finland or air attacks on the Baku oil facilities).
 

Old Airman

Banned
they were preparing military measures against them (the aforementioned intervention on behalf of Finland or air attacks on the Baku oil facilities).
I don't want to start the blame game and fully understand British desire to pad their resume as far as 1938-1940 is concerned, but I'm not convinced that Baku was planned as retaliation for joining the Axis. After all, De Gaulle claimed that French General Staff spent more effort in Spring 1940 planning Baku strike than it did planning war against actual living breathing Axis state next door.
 

Cook

Banned
P.P.S. As far as "Hitler-Stalin alliance against the West" idea goes, I think we're firmly in ASB territory. MR was never more than an agreement of convenience.

Old Airman, I think we are looking at Allied attack on Soviets here so a marriage of convenience between Hitler and Stalin.

It’s important to remember that the Soviets in several incidences violated neutrality to provide assistance to the Germans. The Soviets allowed the Nazi’s to set up a submarine supply base in their territory near Murmansk, Basis Nord. They also provided access to the Northern Sea Route and icebreakers so that German commerce readers could travel to the Pacific via the Arctic.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
I don't want to start the blame game and fully understand British desire to pad their resume as far as 1938-1940 is concerned, but I'm not convinced that Baku was planned as retaliation for joining the Axis. After all, De Gaulle claimed that French General Staff spent more effort in Spring 1940 planning Baku strike than it did planning war against actual living breathing Axis state next door.

Yes, and de Gaulle was probably right. The French seemed more eager to fight the Soviets than the Germans in late 39/early 40. In fact, the reason the Daladier government collapsed in March of 1940 was less because it had been lax in prosecuting the war against Germany, and more because it had not declared war on the Soviet Union. Even on the eve of the German Western Offensive, the Rightists in the French Parliament still insisted on seeing the USSR as the real enemy, rather than Nazi Germany.
 
P.P.S. As far as "Hitler-Stalin alliance against the West" idea goes, I think we're firmly in ASB territory. MR was never more than an agreement of convenience.
I'm pretty sure there's general agreement that any such alliance wouldn't last one second longer than the common enemy, at best. IMO, the alliance against the West would just be an extension of the principle behind Molotov-Ribbentrop; pursue mutual interests against mutual opponents.

As soon as the alliance stops being mutually beneficial and/or one side sees more advantage in backstabbing the other, it will come to an end. It probably wouldn't even last through the entire war against the Allies; sooner or later Hitler/Stalin will decide the time has come to strike at the true enemy while their back is turned. In other words, it's not so much a true alliance as it is a temporary agreement to put off their own impending war for a bit while they kill other people.
 
- The northern endeavour does seem like a good PoD, but I don't see Norway joining the war against us. We can be as dickish as we like (we weren't really that scrupulous OTL), but we still hold that merchant navy of their hostage.

- I agree that the instinct to bomb Baku arose from the Chamberlain government's own pro-Fasict prejudices: there has been a lot of resume-padding ever since, which I consider deeply unBritish as it implies feelings about our leadership other than vague cynicism. ;)

That was why there was a policy of appeasement, and you need only look at some of the rhetoric to come from some of them to see that a lot of the stuff said today about "overestimation of German military strength" and "a desire for peace" were secondary concerns at best. Halifax basically said "What the Nazis are doing is okay and cool, as long as its dirty Bolsheviks on the receiving end" somewhere in 1933-4, IIRC. The possibility of an eventual war with the Soviets - possibly hand-in-hand with the Germans - may well have been in the future for the more stridently ideological school of appeaser (there were misled individuals who just wanted to be chums, but most of them, like "pretty much all of Labour", saw that this was impossible before September 1939). When war with the Germans had finally been forced on Chamberlain, it was only natural that he'd see the resource shipments and itch to strike at the "true enemy" in the process.

Remember that we underestimated the Soviets quite badly. Our estimate for organised Soviet resistance in June 1941 was six weeks, and the BBC was ordered not to give any more hopeful impressions in broadcasting. I like to use this to illustrate the delightful old British pessimism (and the fatalism that had come over the war effort by this point which meant that Britain wasn't going to surrender the second Malta fell or whatever), but it also indicates a bad misreading of Soviet capability which could invite disaster.

- With regard to what actually happens, well, I can't see so very much changing for a bit. Finland probably gets squashed eventually, which will be a boon for the Soviets if/when the Soviet-German war hits. Baku will prick the Soviets, but the lesson of the war was that the bomber wasn't all its cracked up to be and you can't bomb an industrial centre out of use, nor bomb a people into submission, without any land forces following. And it's not like we'll be overflowing with resources after France falls.

A bigger commitment to the north might mean we dragoon Norway, which probably works against us in the grand scheme of things. Less easy co-operation from that merchant fleet, and all the Norwegian occupation force ever did was sit there and not fight the Red Army. Now, the German invasion of Norway being decisively foiled, that would be a major score for us, but it's probably just not going to happen.

Since Stalin is going to be just as wary of the Germans and, as OA says, perhaps even more paranoid, I don't think much will happen in the mid-east. The Soviets can occupy as much of Iran as they did OTL, and probably some more, as supply lines and commitments elsewhere favour them hugely over us. They might infringe on Iraq, but to me, decisive commitment to Iran (which is likely to mean Britain is decisively chased out), extension of operations to Iraq, and possible war with Turkey is just too much for a Stalin conscious of German strength to load onto his plate. Attacking across Afghanistan into India is simply a British fantasy of the Crimean War.

- The real danger for this scenario, I think, is the possible effects on British domestic developments. Best case scenario: major fuck-ups against both dictators allow Clem to take over and pursue a pragmatic policy with the aim of defeating the Nazis. British-Soviet war wound down by both sides. German attack on Soviets met with more effective resistance (and no Axis Finland helps too) and serves as the signal for Britain and the Soviets to bury the hatchet. Less lend-lease, probably, but then the Soviets will be in a much better position to start off with.

But that is the best case scenario. Winnie may take over after *Dunkirk on a platform of Nevah Surrendah to Anyone Evah and persist in a three-way war, which I think means eventual Nazi defeat, but with more blood, sweat, toil, and tears than OTL all round; for us, anyway.

And I don't think Halifax deciding that the bitter accomodation has to be made with Hitler and not Stalin is impossible, either. :(

(My calculations are based on America still making war against Hitler eventually, which in my more optimistic scenarios seems likely. Lord knows what Japan will get up to.)
 
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My personal opinion of those talks is that the Nazis were deep in their military preparations against the Soviets, but they (or at least Ribbentrop) still wanted to use the Soviets against us if that was at all possible. Various shinies were dangled in front of Molotov (including India, which as we all know Russia is far too large and directly pointed at ;)), who was having none of it and kept coming back to the urgent questions in Europe that the Nazis could not answer: "What are all those Germans doing in Finland, and when do we get analogous influence in Bulgaria?" Since any agreement on those countries would jeopardise Nazi military plans to invade Russia, and those always had first priority, no agreement there was possible. It's quite likely that Stalin was just probing intentions: the man could actually tell the truth.

That's not the scenario we're discussing, obviously, but it does demonstrate a lot of the basic Nazi-Soviet strategic divergence that made M-R a temporary matter for both sides.
 
There are two decent PODs for this. One is Finland lasting a bit longer, giving the Allies enough time to send the expeditionary force they were planning to dispatch IOTL.

To me, this POD has started to look like a non-starter. It is not just more Finnish martial prowess it needs (and we already had that to spare, thank you) but several other things too.

It is clear Finland was not going to ask Allied help if the intervention means going against Norway and, especially, Sweden. The Swedish government was making it clear they would fight the Allies, at least when the Finns asked their view. This was, IMHO, the thing that stopped the plan IOTL. The other thing is timing: the Finnish government would have to be reckless beyond redemption to carry on fighting when it knew any troops the Allies could spare would, in the end, be too little and too late to save the country if the main front was breached. In most cases, Finland would sue for peace before any reasonable number of Allied troops has arrived into the country.

And Stalin would go for peace too, because he really did not want to fight the Allies in late 1939-early 1940. Not over Finland. Finland is near, it is peripheral and isolated: it is there to be grabbed when the opportunity presents itself. Why fight the Allies over it when you can come back later to finish the job, say, at a time in the near future when the war in the West really kicks into gear.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
It is clear Finland was not going to ask Allied help if the intervention means going against Norway and, especially, Sweden. The Swedish government was making it clear they would fight the Allies, at least when the Finns asked their view. This was, IMHO, the thing that stopped the plan IOTL.

But the Allies were motivated by more than a simple desire to help the Finns. They also wanted to use the dispatch of an expeditionary force to Finland as a cover to seize the Swedish iron ore mines from which Germany got about half its iron (or at least capture the Norweigan ports that allowed the Germans access to the iron when the northern Baltic was frozen during the winter). Had they done so, the German war industry would have been dealt a crippling blow. So they might have gone ahead even without a direct Finnish request, and if the Finns were still fighting the Russians, they certainly wouldn't have said no to a few tens of thousands of Allied soldiers and war material.
 
France and the UK declared war on Germany for invading Poland but said nothing about the Soviet invasion, mostly out of not wanting to provoke them. suppose then that allied leaders had bigger stones...

War is declared on both Germany and the Soviet Union in 1939.

Hitler orders a halt in all offensive operations, even against Poland and makes a separate peace/anti-communist alliance with the Allies. He now has the war he always wanted and has the allies he always wanted. The USSR is history by 1941.
 
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Hitler orders a halt in all offensive operations, even against Poland and makes a separate peace/anti-communist alliance with the Allies. He now has the war he always wanted and has the allies he always wanted. The USSR is history by 1941.

Poland has already fallen by the time any casus-belli has appeared, since Germany had largely destroyed Poland's mobile forces by the time the Soviets entered the country (they even withdrew from some areas, the Bialystok and Lviv vincinities, to let the Soviets in).

That being the case, you've got the phony war, just with another phony war against the USSR going on. Hitler isn't going to go starting a potential two-front war any time soon, of course, so this would require the succesful conclusion of a peace between Germany and the Entente. Now, various people (many of the appeasers, although I'm dubious about Hitler) would have receptive to a deal that just recognised that Poland had been swallowed preparatory to the old Crusade Against Bolshevism, but the French government and British public and parliamentary opinion are most unlikley to let this go through.
 
Poland has already fallen by the time any casus-belli has appeared, since Germany had largely destroyed Poland's mobile forces by the time the Soviets entered the country (they even withdrew from some areas, the Bialystok and Lviv vincinities, to let the Soviets in).

That being the case, you've got the phony war, just with another phony war against the USSR going on. Hitler isn't going to go starting a potential two-front war any time soon, of course, so this would require the succesful conclusion of a peace between Germany and the Entente. Now, various people (many of the appeasers, although I'm dubious about Hitler) would have receptive to a deal that just recognised that Poland had been swallowed preparatory to the old Crusade Against Bolshevism, but the French government and British public and parliamentary opinion are most unlikley to let this go through.

With no hope of America entering the war against Germany, England would have accepted just about anything that left the Empire intact and gave them a figleaf to cover their pride. And America will not get in the way of the great crusade against Communism; I know Wallace and the other fellow travelers would not like that, but they could not stop it.
 
This would be a very dangerous situation for the Allies. As stated earlier, it would have brought Finland into entente with them. The only hope I see for the Allies is to have already been militarising and re-industrialising (requiring an earlier POD), and for them to take immediate action in 1939 September by invading the Rhineland with a massive assault against the Siegfried Line. If they can get a revolt against Hitler and the Nazis going, they might get Germany to ally with them against the Soviets. it would be a long stretch, but it is within the realm of marginal possibility.
 
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