War aims of a "Nazi" France?

Awesome! ^_^

Well in a Nazi-like Frace scenario, Italy position is probably at her opposite side.
Italy have eyes on lot of French possession and Yugoslavia (Benny favorite target) is a France protege (at least in OTL), so an alliance with the UK is natural as even the British will search a strong continental ally and if Germany can't really rearm Italy is the best choice; plus France as claim on part of north Italy so we know that we will be a target.
The war will be principally on air and sea as the Alps block any attempts from both sides ( or maybe the France can try to invade Switzerland...oh the fiend) except for North Africa where Anglo-italian troops will fight the Franco-Spanish for the control of the desert.
I think Italy works best as a member of the French alliance in my scenario.

Mussolini's the opportunistic type. He'll wait to see how the cards fall after war starts over Wallonia. Germany's quick defeat will cause him to do some thinking, as will as the Fall of Gibraltar and North African campaign.

Britain can offer Italy some territories on the French border, along with French African colonies. A free hand in Yugoslavia too perhaps, although thats a rather iffy thing.

Mussolini however could see the possiblity of taking Egypt and the Sudan to link Italian Libya and Italian East Africa. France can also offer to sell Chad to Italy as an alternative to Egypt, if France has interest in Egypt besides the Canal. Chad is useless compared to the benefits having Italy on France's side.

And to sweeten the deal a three way partition of Switzerland between France, Italy and Austria could be in the cards.

Yugoslavia is a sticky point, but Mussolini was able to tolerate Yugoslavia's short membership in the axis OTL, so he should be able to deal with it here.

Works better from a story telling perspective too in my opinion. Helps balances the French and British alliances out more.
 
I just realized that they would still be fighting the actual Nazis. How would the French populace feel about carrying out essentially German policy?
 
In term of sheer membership, he best bet if we want to take a party from OTL would probably either the Parti Populaire Français, the Parti Franciste or the Action Française.

(not their actual flags but made using their actual logos so, what the hell)

fr-nazi.png
 

JJohnson

Banned
I don't know if a similar ideology is even possible. A lot of Nazi policy was derived from the activities of the German Empire in their African colonies, whereas France was one of the most tolerant out of those empires, so they wouldn't have any predetermined policies in the colonies being used in Europe itself. In addition, when you have a large colonial empire, being Nazi really won't work. Expect mass rebellion in the colonies, covert support from Britain, and in general, heavy resistance.

National socialism, perhaps not the exact style in Germany, but a fascist nonetheless could be possible. Something totalitarian, as in, everything is political (what you eat, wear, read, buy, etc.) and any action by the state is justified to achieve the common good, that is very possible in perhaps most states at the time. The state assuming responsibility for health, well-being, and imposition of uniformity of thought and action by either force, regulation, or social pressure, that's possible. Co-opting the economy and religion to the objectives of the state is possible. Demonization of the opposition as enemies of the state is possible. A French variation of a religion of the state is possible. Some places called the French revolution an early form of the religion of the state.

Interesting thread. It would be interesting to posit what would happen to Europe after this version of France begins a war, and how it would develop post-war.
 
Works better from a story telling perspective too in my opinion. Helps balances the French and British alliances out more.

Not really, with Hitler Rhineland adventures go awry he is a shakier position and all the nazi sheningahn can be just history as he is booted out of office in shame, plus there is the fact that with a Nazi-like France the possibilities that he can get away with any serious rearm is really really low, so we can get a Germany who is lot less nazi and even if economically ok is a military midget; so in term of pure military balance Italy is needed.
Second, no too much contrastant interest between Italy and France in that case, France has lot of things that Italy want and France has some mire on the italian one; an alliance with Germany work because in the end except for South Tyrol the respective sphere of interest are nicely separate (at least in theory), here the situation is a little more murkier; plus if a choice has to be made an alliance, between France and Great Britain (plus Germany) Italy is more inclined to London.
 
That's what I was thinking too, but it sound too bland, not nazi-like enough.

And about the party, anyone ? Parti National-Socialiste des Travailleurs Français (NSTF) would be the easiest option, but too much nazi-like this time.

Parti Corporatiste Français ? (corporatism was the official ideology of vichy france), they could be known as the "Corpos". For the storm troopers equivalent "Gardes d'assaut" ?

uniform wise, most fascist leaning parties in OTL seemed to have leaned toward blue shirts and berets (blue or black).
 
Not really, with Hitler Rhineland adventures go awry he is a shakier position and all the nazi sheningahn can be just history as he is booted out of office in shame, plus there is the fact that with a Nazi-like France the possibilities that he can get away with any serious rearm is really really low, so we can get a Germany who is lot less nazi and even if economically ok is a military midget; so in term of pure military balance Italy is needed.
Second, no too much contrastant interest between Italy and France in that case, France has lot of things that Italy want and France has some mire on the italian one; an alliance with Germany work because in the end except for South Tyrol the respective sphere of interest are nicely separate (at least in theory), here the situation is a little more murkier; plus if a choice has to be made an alliance, between France and Great Britain (plus Germany) Italy is more inclined to London.
Yes but Italy adds military balance in the wrong direction.

Comparing Britain and France, Britain is stronger imo, thanks to the Royal Navy. Adding the Regina Marina certainly doesnt help matters, not to mention the second front for France. The Regina Marina would be a good addition to the Franco-Spanish fleets though.

Anyways the difficulties between France and Italy arnt something thats impossible to work through. Plus Italy doesnt have any particular soft spot for London so i dont know what makes you say that. With France having the impression of winning the war, compared to Britain's 'Darkest Hour' impression than if anything France seems like the better one to side with.
 
What about the United States and the Soviet Union? Where they factoring? Because I'm seeing France rapidly isolating itself from all the Great Powers (Britain, the USA, the USSR and the Empire of Japan.)
 
What about the United States and the Soviet Union? Where they factoring? Because I'm seeing France rapidly isolating itself from all the Great Powers (Britain, the USA, the USSR and the Empire of Japan.)
I imagine the Soviets will enjoy watching the decadent capitalists kill each other.

The largest sticking point between France and the USSR will be the existence of France's dear ally Poland. Stalin will be happy to wait for the USSR to gain strength before any confrontation though. The USSR will happily sell the French all they want out of the Ukraine, while selling Japan and the British all they want out of Vladivostok.

And since France sees its primary enemies as the Germanics and the Anglo-Saxons (followed by the Jews), they'll be happy to devote all their attention to the war with Britain and continuing the peace with the USSR. Depending on how pragmatic Le Chef is, a memorandum of understanding could possibly be signed between France and the USSR, recognizing the Baltics and Finland and Moldavia as 'not of interest to France' in exchange for a gurantee of Poland's borders and a non aggression and trade pact with France.

As for America, France isnt going USW probably due to focus on surface ships rather than subs making USW not very useful. And with Japan on Britain's side there's not really much France can do to piss America off besides rhetoric. America's sympathies will be towards Britain but thats probably not enough to overcome the isolationism.

Meanwhile on the other side of the world Britain's ally Japan is pounding China's face in though. America probably decides to just sit WW2 out.
 
If you want to play up the "Hitler equivalent" bit, make him a Walloon who fought for France, and later makes an (what's Anschluss in French?) of Belgium.

Leon Degrelle would certainly make a better looking leader than Jacques Doriot, and his charisma certainly matched Hitler. But he is a tad too young, and I don't know how likely it is for there to be any pro-Annexation sentiment amongst the Wallons, even among the Rexists who were very much copy-cats of French Integralism before they became copycats of Nazism.

You don't really need to speculate what French National Socialism/Fascism would have looked like, because it already existed in OTL, albeit out of power. It consisted of a variety of different currents, ranging from National Catholic Monarchism to National Syndicalism, but they all fall roughly under the label Integralism. French Fascism ("Integralism") was essentially opposed in every possible sense to the motto of the French revolution, hoping to return France to it's pre-revolution glory. Thus it's highly likely that French Fascism will be monarchist in sentiment but like Spanish Fascism it may delay or procrastinate about a Restoration, Pro-Catholic (but not necessarily "Clerical", as the Church itself was hostile to Integralism), classicist (as opposed to enlightenment thinking) and "National Syndicalist" in the Spanish sense. It will also be violently anti-Semeitic, unlike Italian Fascism, but like Italian Fascism not entirely thrilled with Nazi Biological Racism. It's main theorists would be Georges Sorel and Charles Maurras.

The character of French Fascism can roughly be summed up in this quotation:
The founders -republicans, federalists, integral nationalists, and syndicalists - having resolved the political problem or dismissed it from their minds, are all enthusiastically in favour of an organisation of French society in accordance with principles taken from the French tradition which they find in Proudhon's works and in the contemporary syndicalist movement, and they are all completely in agreement on the following points:
Democracy is the greatest error of the past century. If one wishes to live, if one wishes to work, if one wishes in social life to possess the greatest human guarantees for production and culture, if one wishes to preserve and increase the moral, intellectual and material capital of civilisation, it is absolutely necessary to destroy all democratic institutions.
-The Déclaration of the Cercle Proudhon

What you'd need in order to make this a ideology capable of taking power is to unite the various right-wing factions in France together, possibly involving the Rexists as well if we think that's realistic, into a single French Integralist Party with Action Française playing the role of the Deutschvölkische Freiheitspartei and the Croix-de-Feu playing the role of the Deutschnationale Volkspartei. You have the Cercle Proudhon types as the equalivent of the Strasser-Rohem faction.
 
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How about the Maronites and the other ethnic and religious minorities of the annexed territories in the Levant? I can see the "National Socialist" regime in France treating the Maronite Christians of Lebanon as long lost ethnic brothers and cousins, descendants of the Crusaders, and that centuries of Muslim rule have left their once Francophone culture and language corrupted by the "inferior" Saracen natives.

I know it doesn't make sense but it is the sort of logic I would expect the "Nazi" French to use with them.
 
It's fun and all but ultimatly France just can't do what you guys are asking. Sure it could turn fascist but starting agressive war no nobody as the will to do this. I mean you can't go to any french village, town and city without seeing a WWI memorial with a list of the men the city lost in the war. Here it's worse most peoples lived throught the war it was not uncommon to cross disfigured men in the street or men missing limbs.
 
It's fun and all but ultimatly France just can't do what you guys are asking. Sure it could turn fascist but starting agressive war no nobody as the will to do this. I mean you can't go to any french village, town and city without seeing a WWI memorial with a list of the men the city lost in the war. Here it's worse most peoples lived throught the war it was not uncommon to cross disfigured men in the street or men missing limbs.
Agreed, you can even see it in the early stages of WWII. France didn't really want to fight another war. As I said, you probably need a POD in the 19th century.
 
Agreed, you can even see it in the early stages of WWII. France didn't really want to fight another war. As I said, you probably need a POD in the 19th century.

French Fascism might really be more like British Fascism, which was in many ways primarily aimed to avoid a second world war rather than to start one.

The Pan-European rhetoric of Vichy and the eagerness of the traditionally anti-German French right to hurl themselves at the feet of the German occupiers could be seen as evidence of this.
 
Honestly, to have a Nazi-like France, you would probably need France to lose World War I. Though you might be able to have one with a POD before 1900 or even after WWII if the allies don't allow Free French Forces to liberate Paris and are extremely harsh towards France in the aftermath of WWII by not allowing it to have any part in the occupation of Germany or Austria or have a protectorate over Saar. Of course, with this last scenario, there would have to be other factors to allow France to go Nazi-like.
 
No one has said our Nazi France scenario is particularly plausible. Implausible isnt the same as impossible though. ;) :D
 
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