Wanted: map of victorious Kaiserreich

Awilla the Hun

OK everyone. Next Monday, I've got a university seminar involving a debate about whether Britain should intervene in WWI or not, and I'm on the side in favour of intervention. To spice things up a bit (in no way inspired by some of this site's posts about ethnic cleansing and suchlike in Prussian Poland), I've been drawn to some of Fritz Fischer's theories about a victorious Germany, and what Europe would look like as a result. To add a bit of zest to this argument, some visual representation is in order.

So-can anyone here reccomend a good map of Europe occupied by a victorious Kaiserreich? I'd prefer it if there isn't anything too outlandish, because this would send the entire thing too far into the realms of alternate history (so please no fascist/communist Frances or Britains, please keep Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans intact, and so on.) Just have the German Empire and its puppet buffer states sprawling across Europe. EDIT: and in Mittelafrika also.
 

Revolutionary Todyo

Banned
Well the best thing would simply be to show a conventional CP victory map only with France and Russia with puppet governments. Essentially, the Germans will establish a continental hegemony that will be able to overcome Britain in any future engagement and will be able to dominate both Africa and Asia thanks to it's new found allies.

Oh, and don't forget to mention that intervention will give the government a break from dealing with Home Rule in Ireland, which is a good enough excuse for going to war IMO :p
 

Awilla the Hun

Thanks for reminding me about Home Rule!

So, can you suggest any good conventional CP victory maps? I don't trust myself to draw one, especially with an essay to write over the next few days.
 

Hamelus

kaiserreich1936bylaiqua.png


http://editthis.info/kaiserreich/

Edit: Oh, no communist France/Britain. Well, at least the map is nice...
 
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Revolutionary Todyo

Banned

Awilla the Hun

Thank you! But I won't be doing Italy, I'm afraid. This is for a history seminar based around Central Powers Italy, not a 'What if the Central Powers had Italy on their side' timeline.
 

Revolutionary Todyo

Banned
Awilla the Hun said:
Thank you! But I won't be doing Italy, I'm afraid. This is for a history seminar based around Central Powers Italy, not a 'What if the Central Powers had Italy on their side' timeline.
Click to expand...

Pardon? Italy was a member of the Central Powers in 1914, Britain would have assumed that they would have joined Germany in going to war with France.
 

Awilla the Hun

I meant 'what if they switched sides'. Because they did most of the work (what passes for it) against the Central Powers, and my argument frankly focusses on Germany rather more than Italy. Still, for the sake of completeness, I'll add on their captured provinces if I have time. (Essay to write.) If I don't have time, I'll apologise for the inadequacies of the map.
 
Iori

Iori

Awilla the Hun said:
(so please no fascist/communist Frances or Britains, please keep Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans intact, and so on.) Just have the German Empire and its puppet buffer states sprawling across Europe. EDIT: and in Mittelafrika also.
Click to expand...

Even in a CP victory it's unlikely the A-H Empire would remain intact, and even less likely that the CP would 'sprawl across Europe' as that was never their intention.
 

Troyer IV

Iori said:
Even in a CP victory it's unlikely the A-H Empire would remain intact, and even less likely that the CP would 'sprawl across Europe' as that was never their intention.
Click to expand...

The idea, from what I gather anyway, is that Awilla the Hun (thread starter) is looking for a visual aid to help support his argument for British intervention. For this, he would likely want or need a big scary Europe dominated by Germany and her lackeys to get the point across. A big united A-H is scarier than a bunch of tiny states, even if we all know its the sickly man of Europe, even if not so sickly as the other German lackey - the Ottomans.

So its essentially a "worst case scenario" without necessarily going into the bounds of total ASB. In other words, what he needs is propaganda. From the British point of view. Thus, a carved France, Low Countries strangled, and Central Powers from Baltic to Bosphorus and Beyond. And maybe with a touch of Russian Bolshevism? Or is that too outside the bounds of expectation in 1914?
 

Revolutionary Todyo

Banned
Troyer IV said:
The idea, from what I gather anyway, is that Awilla the Hun (thread starter) is looking for a visual aid to help support his argument for British intervention. For this, he would likely want or need a big scary Europe dominated by Germany and her lackeys to get the point across. A big united A-H is scarier than a bunch of tiny states, even if we all know its the sickly man of Europe, even if not so sickly as the other German lackey - the Ottomans.

So its essentially a "worst case scenario" without necessarily going into the bounds of total ASB. In other words, what he needs is propaganda. From the British point of view. Thus, a carved France, Low Countries strangled, and Central Powers from Baltic to Bosphorus and Beyond. And maybe with a touch of Russian Bolshevism? Or is that too outside the bounds of expectation in 1914?
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone expected the Bolshies to come to power in 1914. The worst Britain would expect would probably be a puppet Russia modernised by German engineers and an army trained by German officers and equipped with German weapons, ships and aircraft to go stomping off into Persia and Manchuria. Essentially every worst-case scenario happens for Britain.
 
Iori

Iori

Troyer IV said:
So its essentially a "worst case scenario" without necessarily going into the bounds of total ASB. In other words, what he needs is propaganda. From the British point of view. Thus, a carved France, Low Countries strangled, and Central Powers from Baltic to Bosphorus and Beyond. And maybe with a touch of Russian Bolshevism? Or is that too outside the bounds of expectation in 1914?
Click to expand...

In 1914 the only thing I think the British would have excpected the Germans to annex is maybe some of the Baltic, and possibly a little more of Lorraine to make a more defensible border and Luxembourg.

At the time the war was'nt a war about annexation or re-organizing Europe, it was just a war or one side wanting to be seen as more powerful.

Likewise at the time they would have considered the Bolsheviks being successful and coming to power in Russia the same way as we'd treat the idea of the National Bolsheviks coming to power in Modern Russia.
 

Troyer IV

Iori said:
In 1914 the only thing I think the British would have excpected the Germans to annex is maybe some of the Baltic, and possibly a little more of Lorraine to make a more defensible border and Luxembourg.

At the time the war was'nt a war about annexation or re-organizing Europe, it was just a war or one side wanting to be seen as more powerful.

Likewise at the time they would have considered the Bolsheviks being successful and coming to power in Russia the same way as we'd treat the idea of the National Bolsheviks coming to power in Modern Russia.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the Bolshevik bit was thrown in as added paranoia-making as I wasn't sure about it.

Now, here's something that makes me wonder - and Awilla might want to think about this and explain - is this debate prior to the German invasion of Belgium? If it is before, then yes, there might be less border changes in a Brit-view map. If after, then the Brits are essentially contractually obligated to join the war because of treaties. Backing out on a treaty will tarnish their reputation severely, and that's just not something they would want to do.

So either scenario is a win-win, debate-wise, though finding a map to scare the pants of of WW1-contemporary Brits might be a bit harder. Of course, he didn't specify that it would need to be British High Command, the Royals, or the average Tommy, so playing on the fears of any and/or all could be quite easy in stretching the bounds of any map he might use in-debate.

Ah... I miss my old debate team.
 

Ofaloaf

Iori said:
Even in a CP victory it's unlikely the A-H Empire would remain intact, and even less likely that the CP would 'sprawl across Europe' as that was never their intention.
Click to expand...
I disagree with the Austro-Hungarian Empire bit; a victory is just what the centralists and federalists needed to overturn the power of the Dual Monarchy-supporting Hungarians and attempt to "equalize" power within, either by centralizing or federalizing everything.
 

ZachScape

I think this thread could be of assistance. I have done a lot more research and there is plenty that could be changed, but I believe this is the best general idea of an early CPV. If you want a late victory, the world would look a lot different.
 

EdT

Earlier PoD and all, but might these maps from "Fight and Be Right" be of any use? They certainly feature a hegemonic Germany in Europe, although not exactly through a First World War as we'd recognise it...


The_German_Empire__1940_by_edthomasten.jpg



Europe__1940_by_edthomasten.jpg
 

lukedalton

Ofaloaf said:
I disagree with the Austro-Hungarian Empire bit; a victory is just what the centralists and federalists needed to overturn the power of the Dual Monarchy-supporting Hungarians and attempt to "equalize" power within, either by centralizing or federalizing everything.
Click to expand...

Only if the war is on the 'short and victorious' type', otherwise is crumble time for A-H
 

Awilla the Hun

Lots of interesting comments!

The debate takes place after the violation of Belgian neutrality, but (strangely) with the knowledge of modern historians alongside those of contemporaries. The teams represent the British Cabinet, on both sides thereof.

And, as for the map-whilst uber Kaiserreich of Doom propaganda is intimidating, anything too improbable is likely to be seen through immediately by the seminar tutor and dismissed as rubbish. What would be useful is a vaguely 'credible' map of Europe, focussing on a truncated France (without its northern industrial areas, perhaps), and Russia bottled back behind all the new German puppet states. AH should be intact, because they've won, and it might overcomplicate things otherwise. Ottoman entry is non essential. The colonies aren't essential either, but should probably involve some new German acquisitions. I'm not sure about Italy, but I suppose they could have taken some French territory; the main thing is a map of Europe showing what it looks like if Fritz Fischer is right. (Whether Fischer himself is a propagandist about some uber Kaiserreich of Doom or not is another matter entirely.)
 
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