Wank - Western Xia

The Western Xia were sinicised; I would thus suspect that if they went empire-building, they'd turn East and attempt to unify "China". Why not?
 
The Western Xia were sinicised; I would thus suspect that if they went empire-building, they'd turn East and attempt to unify "China". Why not?

Were the Western Xia remotely close to strong enough? It seems more likely to me that they'd make serious efforts to ensure complete dominance over trade along the Silk Road. The process of which guarantees a stronger army. Bring the Uighers (were they around at this point?) and different steppe tribes together and the Western Xia can form a "Third China" - Northern China, Southern China, Outer China. Which could lead to them dominating Korea - even if the "Outer China" is mostly steppe.
 
The Western Xia were sinicised; I would thus suspect that if they went empire-building, they'd turn East and attempt to unify "China". Why not?
They were partially sinicised.They were very adamant in retaining their own separate identity and specifically invented their own script to do so.
 
Were the Western Xia remotely close to strong enough? It seems more likely to me that they'd make serious efforts to ensure complete dominance over trade along the Silk Road. The process of which guarantees a stronger army. Bring the Uighers (were they around at this point?) and different steppe tribes together and the Western Xia can form a "Third China" - Northern China, Southern China, Outer China. Which could lead to them dominating Korea - even if the "Outer China" is mostly steppe.
The Western Xia were roughly similarly powerful than the Western Wei in the 6th century, and the latter then went expanding as the Northern Zhou which then was the building block of the Sui dynasty.
The OP specifically required a wank - I don`t think Western Xia conquest of China is the likelist of all options, but if Western Xia went on a conquering spree, I´m sure it wouldn`t go steppe-based. It would go mountain-based, if the place they lived in and their warfare was adapted to tells us anything.
Their ties were closest with Tibet, so if we want to wank Western Xia, I suppose formal vassalage and massive recruitment of Tibetans could be a start. Controlling the Tarim Basin and thus the Silk Road is the likeliest first target. Wrestling the control over the Eastern Chinese-Indian trade route from the Dali could be the next step. Controlling all that commerce makes for good funding of any campaigns, and the next ones would harass the Song. While a steamroller conquest is certainly implausible, effective blows are not beyond imagination, while the Western Xia themselves are relatively difficult to counter-attack, sitting as they are in the mountains. Maybe Song becomes so destabilised that it fractures into several smaller entities and sinks into civil warfare? In that case, a peacemeal Xia conquest from the West could be within the realm of the possible. Once half of that is achieved, the Liao in the North are ripe for the plucking. The last steps of unifying conquests always seem to happen quick in China once the balance of power has begun to tip.
 
The Western Xia were roughly similarly powerful than the Western Wei in the 6th century, and the latter then went expanding as the Northern Zhou which then was the building block of the Sui dynasty.
The OP specifically required a wank - I don`t think Western Xia conquest of China is the likelist of all options, but if Western Xia went on a conquering spree, I´m sure it wouldn`t go steppe-based. It would go mountain-based, if the place they lived in and their warfare was adapted to tells us anything.
Their ties were closest with Tibet, so if we want to wank Western Xia, I suppose formal vassalage and massive recruitment of Tibetans could be a start. Controlling the Tarim Basin and thus the Silk Road is the likeliest first target. Wrestling the control over the Eastern Chinese-Indian trade route from the Dali could be the next step. Controlling all that commerce makes for good funding of any campaigns, and the next ones would harass the Song. While a steamroller conquest is certainly implausible, effective blows are not beyond imagination, while the Western Xia themselves are relatively difficult to counter-attack, sitting as they are in the mountains. Maybe Song becomes so destabilised that it fractures into several smaller entities and sinks into civil warfare? In that case, a peacemeal Xia conquest from the West could be within the realm of the possible. Once half of that is achieved, the Liao in the North are ripe for the plucking. The last steps of unifying conquests always seem to happen quick in China once the balance of power has begun to tip.
I disagree.Western Wei controlled the Hetao region, Guanzhong and Sichuan(the latter two were highly fertile and could support a lot of soldiers).
 
I disagree.Western Wei controlled the Hetao region, Guanzhong and Sichuan(the latter two were highly fertile and could support a lot of soldiers).
In the wars 1039-44, western Xia must have strong enough to bring the Song to paying massive tributes to them afterwards. And W Xia had fought these wars against Song and Liao at once.

You are right about population bases, but that's not always the same as military strength.

I see as a bigger problem with my scenario: why would the Western Xia start attacking the Song when they already milked them? They couldn't hope to profit more from direct rule...
 
In the wars 1039-44, western Xia must have strong enough to bring the Song to paying massive tributes to them afterwards. And W Xia had fought these wars against Song and Liao at once.

You are right about population bases, but that's not always the same as military strength.

I see as a bigger problem with my scenario: why would the Western Xia start attacking the Song when they already milked them? They couldn't hope to profit more from direct rule...
The Song Dynasty just sucked militarily.As for paying ‘massive’ tributes,the problem was that the Song Dynasty’s just so fabulously rich that the tributes it pays to foreign countries constitutes just a small part of their revenue.Basically,the cost of military adventure outweighed the cost of paying foreign states off both economically and politically.
 
Ok, so acknowledging @darthfanta's point about relative strenghths, let's keep the Xia-wank limited to controlling the Tarim Basin or at least the southern route, Dali and indirectly Tibet.

That would be a very Buddhist state; controlling China's non-naval trade; and otherwise highly heterogeneous. If the PoD is No Genghis Khan, I'm curious as to where its foreign policies would turn to.
 
The Song Dynasty just sucked militarily.As for paying ‘massive’ tributes,the problem was that the Song Dynasty’s just so fabulously rich that the tributes it pays to foreign countries constitutes just a small part of their revenue.Basically,the cost of military adventure outweighed the cost of paying foreign states off both economically and politically.

Interesting. I wonder if the Western Xia, which I assume used something akin to Chinese Confucian Government could take advantage of using China as a trade partner/cash-cow (probably the latter when China tries to trade in a way that excludes them), develop as Outer China then. Not inherently a Steppe Empire, but as Salvador said, Mountains (Tibet, etc), and then Central Asia - only then pushing Northwards - bringing the Steppe tribes in as Tributaries or vassals, or some sort of relationship.

It could then act as an Alt-Russia, controlling Eurasia north of Persia and China, and West of the Urals. With a different method of government, they could be more stable than the Mongols (especially if they weren't as aggressive in wanting to invade China and Persia, but merely act between them). Its main point of issue would be wrangling the steppe tribes into some sort of working peace. If it is "Play nice, deal with your issues via our court, or we crush those who break that rule.", fine.
 

Kaze

Banned
In OTL the Western Xia made several attempts to invading the Jin Dynasty. There was even a brief alliance with the Southern Song Dynasty towards that aim.

So in the New TL - taking the Jin Dynasty would be within the Western Xia's foreign policy.
 
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