Walking Through Dreams: Lands of Red and Gold (preview)

Hmm. There will be parts of Australia which are heavily urbanised. So there might be dogs bred in those areas.

Hmmm, would there be extensive urbanisation along the Murray valley, with perhaps a major city state in the location of OTL Albury-Wodonga?
 
1) As far as I know, Macassar contact with northern Australia was limited to the northern fringes of the Northern Territory and north-western WA. I've never even heard of them reaching Cape York, let alone making it down the east coast to Tasmania. This is still actually quite a long stretch of coast - up to 2000 km - but it's a very, very long way from there to Tasmania.



2) As far as I know, the Bugis (and others) traded knives to the Aboriginal peoples, not brought Aboriginal knives home. (Since the Aboriginal people didn't have metal knives). The trepangs were the main good they came for; they may have taken back salt and a few other things, but the trepangs were the most valuable trade good they brought back.



3)Would they be motivated to explore further than they went in OTL? Possibly, but I don't see any strong motivations.

1) Well, Bugis did reach places as far as Madagascar and South Africa IOTL, so I don't think that would be as much of a stretch like you pointed for them if it's just for Tasmania. The ancestors of Madagaskar Malays came to the island with even less advanced naval technology compared to 15th century Bugis.... :eek:

2) Good point about the knives... :eek:

3) I don't think I get your point here. They were enthusiastic explorers, so why won't they be motivated if it's just to explore ? If it is about will they find something interesting there and will they abandon that place like they never saw it if they don't, that'll be the next issue. However, as I have explained to you, the Bugis sailors would still be capable if it's only to reach Tasmania.
 

Seldrin

Banned
3) I don't think I get your point here. They were enthusiastic explorers, so why won't they be motivated if it's just to explore ? If it is about will they find something interesting there and will they abandon that place like they never saw it if they don't, that'll be the next issue. However, as I have explained to you, the Bugis sailors would still be capable if it's only to reach Tasmania.

Yet they didn't do it in OTL, if they didn't do it then, why would they do it when the areas they did visit in OTL are the same??
 
Yet they didn't do it in OTL, if they didn't do it then, why would they do it when the areas they did visit in OTL are the same??

How can you be so sure ?

I'm not sure whether they did it or not personally too. I saw it on one of the books I read back then, that the Bugis did sail as far as Tasmania IOTL. Of course, I have yet to hold any confirming proofs. But nor that it has already been confirmed that they didn't either....
 
Hmmm, would there be extensive urbanisation along the Murray valley, with perhaps a major city state in the location of OTL Albury-Wodonga?

The Murray Valley, particularly the middle Murray and the lower Murrumbidgee, are going to be extensively urbanised. Not necessarily large cities, but lots of them. *Australian agriculture is going to be quite productive per acre, even without irrigation. In a place with enough water for drinking and managed wetlands, there's going to be a lot of people living there. Possibly a few other areas as well, but the Murray Valley will be a thickly-populated region.

1) Well, Bugis did reach places as far as Madagascar and South Africa IOTL, so I don't think that would be as much of a stretch like you pointed for them if it's just for Tasmania. The ancestors of Madagaskar Malays came to the island with even less advanced naval technology compared to 15th century Bugis.... :eek:

Actually, it is quite a stretch for their naval technology. The Indian Ocean is quite easy to sail across once you've figured out the monsoon patterns. (It's the easiest of the major oceans to sail across). The way the prevailing winds blow in Australia, though, actually makes it a considerable pain to sail south along either the east or the west coast. Exploring the northern reaches is pretty easy - it is in fact a natural extension of following the monsoons along the rest of the Indian Ocean - but going further south means you're working against the prevailing winds the entire way. The winds blow you north (if you're lucky), or into the shore, if you're unlucky. Having reefs along much of the northern stretches doesn't help with exploration, either.

The easy way to explore Australia with sailing ships is to start at the south and work your way north. It's no coincidence that most of the European exploration of Australia worked this way. The Dutch found it easy to explore Australia because they were coming from the south and working north (or keeping on going east to New Zealand, which also works). Whereas the Spanish and Portuguese had been sniffing around the north of Australia for a while, and didn't make it further south.

3) I don't think I get your point here. They were enthusiastic explorers, so why won't they be motivated if it's just to explore ?

Partly because of the natural barriers, as mentioned upthread, and also because they don't seem to have done it in OTL. I'm not aware of any mention of the Bugis making it as far as Cape York, even - although they may well have been occasional visitors. Certainly, even if they were at Cape York, going all the way down the east coast is a difficult accomplishment.

Yet they didn't do it in OTL, if they didn't do it then, why would they do it when the areas they did visit in OTL are the same??

How can you be so sure ?

I'm not sure whether they did it or not personally too. I saw it on one of the books I read back then, that the Bugis did sail as far as Tasmania IOTL. Of course, I have yet to hold any confirming proofs. But nor that it has already been confirmed that they didn't either....

If the Bugis had been given sufficient motivation, they might have been able to work out a way to explore further south. There's no increased ATL motivation for them, though, and I can't find any source which indicates that they made it past Cape York or the northernmost reaches of Western Australia. There's even considerable argument about exactly when the Bugis reached Australia. Certainly they made it by the early 1700s, but this is a century or so after the Dutch are going to start exploring from the south. Some people contend that the Bugis had been exploring northern Australia since the mid-1400s, but the evidence is contentious.
 
Fascinating TL. There are a lot of possibilities to be examined without it turning into a Nativewank and given Jared's track record I doubt that will happen.

Looking forward to being entertained and educated on this one.:D
 
Fascinating TL. There are a lot of possibilities to be examined without it turning into a Nativewank and given Jared's track record I doubt that will happen.

Whatever else this timeline may become, it's not going to turn into a nativewank. They may well have some surprising knowledge in some areas, much as the Maya were very good at astronomy, the Incas were very good at organisation and roadbuilding, and so on. But overall... they're still up against the problem of guns, germs and steel. (Although they may have some germs of their own, but I digress.)

Looking forward to being entertained and educated on this one.:D

I've been educated when researching the background I need to write it, so anything's possible. :)
 

Paul MacQ

Donor
Well as a Kiwi on the Boards how did I miss this thread .
Great work Jared
The Sailing Across the Tasman is quite a Possibility
Despite the thoughts of Pure Distance there is well documented cases of how Travel by the Polynesians was possible and unlike what people first thought the Double Hull canoe seems to have been used to sail as close to the wind as possible not, as often thought with the wind And Making sure you Travel as far as you can , and taking advantage of prevailing winds to return , and more likely to get home if need be
As a side note is Much easier to get Back to New Zealand sailing than getting To Australia With the Currants and wind Sailing from New Zealand with Most common winds is a Landing near the Southern Area Probably Southern New South Wales is Most likely As Mostly North Westerly Wind More north you go the more you have to get close to the wind probably too much

Useful links to Check
http://pvs.kcc.hawaii.edu/aboutpvs.html
http://www.transitofvenus.co.nz/wakavoyaging/index1.html

If the Maori are Turning up and Using skill of a Grandfather, Might want them getting there 100 – 200 years Earlier

Yes and Protein for New Zealand was the Biggest Issue Often Tribes Going to great Distance to get this Such as, Having other Options that might Grow here would be Great,
But in New Zealand there is now Emu Farming might want to look at possibility of Domestic Big bird , Not sure how possible that is without an inspiration for Domestication

Also some advances in and more Travel By Large Canoes , Whaling might also be a seasonal extra source of Protein

Small Prey Animals like the Wallaby and Possum would Solve allot of the Protein Problem maybe over well
Wallaby became a bit of a Pest in New Zealand and loved Thrived here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallaby
Australian Possum on the other hand has been a Disaster on the New Zealand Ecology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possum
 
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