Wagner does NOT get support from Ludwig

Ludwig of Bavaria supposedly backed Richard Wagner in his projects.WI Wagner does not get support from the King?What occurs next for the composer?Does he emmigrate or try and find financial support from other sources?
 
Hmmm. Despite the opprobrium heaped on his head for all manner of personal shortcomings, as a composer, Wagner was pretty good, and his style sold. So if he doersn't get a royal protector, he could choose to leave Germany again (he had lived abroad before) and try his luck. He might even have to. Royal patronage was the main reason nobody much brought up his involvement with the '48 revolution.

If he goes, the best destinations would be Paris or London. His grand operas would probably end up a little less grand (even the big companies don't have that much money), but his love of stage technology and bombast would be right on the money.

Heh, imagine the Peguin History of English Music

Wagoner (also: Wagner, Wagonner), Richard (b. 1813, Lepizig, d. 1889, London): Notable 19th century operatic composer, today best remembered for his elaborate productions and many musical and technological innovations. Famous works include German-language operas from his Dresden years The Flying Dutchman (1843), Tannhäuser (1845) and Lohengrin (1850), The Nibelungen Cycle (1865-74) begun during exile in Zurich and finished during his tenure in London, and his English-language oeuvre The Green Knight (1871), Chaucer (1877), King Aelfred (1879), Beowulf (1881), The Feast of Horsa (1884), Richard and Saladin (1886) and the posthumous, incomplete 'Round Table' cycle (Merlin, The Knights of the Round Table, The Quest for the Grail, Arthur's Death). His ballad compositions "Tales of Robynhode" are still favourites in school music performances.
 
Heh, imagine the Peguin History of English Music

Wagoner (also: Wagner, Wagonner), Richard (b. 1813, Lepizig, d. 1889, London): Notable 19th century operatic composer, today best remembered for his elaborate productions and many musical and technological innovations. Famous works include German-language operas from his Dresden years The Flying Dutchman (1843), Tannhäuser (1845) and Lohengrin (1850), The Nibelungen Cycle (1865-74) begun during exile in Zurich and finished during his tenure in London, and his English-language oeuvre The Green Knight (1871), Chaucer (1877), King Aelfred (1879), Beowulf (1881), The Feast of Horsa (1884), Richard and Saladin (1886) and the posthumous, incomplete 'Round Table' cycle (Merlin, The Knights of the Round Table, The Quest for the Grail, Arthur's Death). His ballad compositions "Tales of Robynhode" are still favourites in school music performances.


Nice! I like very much.
 
Wagner can't end up in America by any means, can he?

I think it is a bit too early for that. The really big operatic productions don't come into the USA until the late gilded age, and he's up for grabs in the late 60s.

Maybe if he gives up on opera and starts writing orchestra music instead? He did towards the end of his life, it could happen earlier if he is consistently disappointed. And he was commissioned to write a Centennial March for the city of Philadelphia, so there is a market for that.
 
Thanks.WI Wagner came to New York or Boston and composed a cycle on the American Civil War in four parts.Any takers on how THIS cycle would come out?
 
Thanks.WI Wagner came to New York or Boston and composed a cycle on the American Civil War in four parts.Any takers on how THIS cycle would come out?

Wagner didn't much like modern sujets, so it's unlikely he'd pick that voluntarily. Anyway, I suspect the wounds would still be too fresh for it to play well. You didn't write symphonies about WWII in 1960.

How about "Washington" for a tragic opera?
 
Wagner didn't much like modern sujets, so it's unlikely he'd pick that voluntarily. Anyway, I suspect the wounds would still be too fresh for it to play well. You didn't write symphonies about WWII in 1960.

How about "Washington" for a tragic opera?

I'd imagine his National Romanticism grafted to American frontierism would produce operas about westward expansion, manifest destiny with themes of "man vs nature", struggle in the vast wilderness and the "twilight" of native American cultures. Kind of like an operatic precursor to a Western, but laced with Wagner's own philosophies.

American Wagner would be very interesting.
 
Just FYI, my little brother's a music theory and composition prof. I've put the question and some of the coments to him, and hope to post his reply soon.

Wagner beinmg one of my favorites, I do like this. I like the "frontier Wagner" a lot.

Copland's compositions are about to become more interesting.

I'm quite tempted to issue a challenge to make both Wagner and Mahler (my two faves) end up American composers... ;)
 
Oh dear...

I'll have to get Mr. Music more into the spirit of AH...

I can't really imagine a guy who devoted all his artistic and political efforts to glorify Germany and all things Germanic working in the US or Britain, but he's not really one I think about very much.
I do recall a story of him referring to a contemporary American composer as the Richard Wagner of America, and the American replied that, no, [Wagner] is the [can't remember the name] of Germany. I've not been able to find that story since I heard it on the radio years ago.
 
Oh dear...

I'll have to get Mr. Music more into the spirit of AH...

Well, Wagner was very much into all things Germanic, but he was also a businessman and not a narrow nationalist. He loved what he considered German(ic) culture (he'd have called it 'deutsch', but it included all Germanic peoples). At this time, the English-speaking majorities of the United States and Britain considered themselves 'of Germanic stock' and there would have been a market for operas themed along those lines. I was spinning my idea out into having Wagner embrace that principle and consider the Arthurian cycle, the history of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms and their epic poetry as broadly similar to German Minnesang, but more 'Ur-'. Of course it does assume that mental attitudes can be altered by commercial success.
 

Thande

Donor
Nice WI, Ed.

Interesting idea, Carlton. I could see this being a big influence on the Anglo-Germanic literary thinkers of the 20th century, e.g. Tolkien.
 

maverick

Banned
Well, I've heard that Wagner was one of the candidates for the Suez Canal cellebrations, before Verdi was picked and he wrote "Aida"

Could Wagner have written an Alternate "Aida" IOTL?
 
What affect would this have on Nietzsche? If Nietzsche's philosophies are somewhat changed what does affect does this have on future philosophers and future political theories? This kind of what if is a great representation of the butterfly effect in action, because even though German Romanticism will live on, it might have slightly different characteristics in the 20th century.
 
What affect would this have on Nietzsche? If Nietzsche's philosophies are somewhat changed what does affect does this have on future philosophers and future political theories? This kind of what if is a great representation of the butterfly effect in action, because even though German Romanticism will live on, it might have slightly different characteristics in the 20th century.

I think Nietzsche might later on come to similar conclusions and write similar works towards the end of his career.

But "The birth of tragedy" is not available in this TL.

But it´d be neat if someone came up with an alternate Nietzsche for this TL. Any ideas about what could be completely different.
 
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