A sensible re-armament policy? Nazi nukes?! I'm drooling, can't wait for the actual war to begin
Wagner’s Germany: An Axis Victory TL
- Thread starter CrimsonKing
- Start date
I was wondering when someone was going to pick up on the way a later war effects the political situation in United States... You're right about FDR not running and a Republican victory in 1940. This is an important point and will be detailed in a future update.
Great update overall (esp. about the jewish question, nice ... teaser).
Thanks!
You know, now that you've laid it out that way, I agree. I have changed the update to three Deutschlands as OTL.
Also : when would "Scharnhost" be ordered ? The ships "C" and "D" where begann officially as "improvements" of the Deutschland-class, and scraped only a few weeks after they had been laid down the first time (July 1934), restarted completly with an entirly different design a year later (June 1935), officially as a further "improvement with 22000 then 26000 t, becomming the slightly over 32000 t ships we know OTL.
However, t's a very interesting change of naval buildings. I am just a bit curious about its timetables
The Scharnhorst was laid down and built as OTL, with C and D being laid down and then scrapped beforehand. The difference is that only one is built before moving to the O-class (or the "Moltkes" as they are called in TTL).
Getting the OTL "Long Lance" ... great idea
To be honest, I don't know specifically.
I assume the general problems with the highly defective torpedoes went undetected because of the bureaucratic chaos which typified Hitler's regime in OTL and which hampered the German war effort in so many other ways. LOL
However, yes radar technology could be a good bargain chip the japanese navy might jump on, not only for possible fire laying but also for their carrier force (the first tests in germany were already able in spotting planes. Nice to have for spotting advancing enemy planes
Agreed that (with the exception of the Italians
) almost anyone could help the Japanese with their armored vehicles. As far as what the Germans gave for the Long Lance, the update specifies that what Japan received in return was aircraft engine technology. I was under the impression that this was one of the areas in which Japan was somewhat behind? However, I am definitely willing to change it if the consensus is that this would be an inadequate offer. What are your opinions on what it should it be, than? Aircraft engines, engineering technology for armored vehicles, radar, or something else? Perhaps some combination?
I will endeavor to cover the remaining period up to the war as quickly as possible.
Interesting. I wonder who the President would be. No matter who it is I expect America to get into the war regardless if Japan attacks. If not, then they will at least hold a benevolent neutrality to the allies
The Japanese had pretty decent radial engines but did not develop a good inline engine. In OTL the Japanese did receive some Daimler Benz inline engines (the same one that powered the Me-109E type) from Germany and used them in their Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien but once the surplus of engines ran out they converted the Ki to take a radial engine which was surprisingly still a pretty good plane.I was wondering when someone was going to pick up on the way a later war effects the political situation in United States... You're right about FDR not running and a Republican victory in 1940. This is an important point and will be detailed in a future update.
Thanks!
You know, now that you've laid it out that way, I agree. I have changed the update to three Deutschlands as OTL.
The Scharnhorst was laid down and built as OTL, with C and D being laid down and then scrapped beforehand. The difference is that only one is built before moving to the O-class (or the "Moltkes" as they are called in TTL).
To be honest, I don't know specifically.
Agreed that (with the exception of the Italians
As far as what the Germans gave for the Long Lance, the update specifies that what Japan received in return was aircraft engine technology. I was under the impression that this was one of the areas in which Japan was somewhat behind? However, I am definitely willing to change it if the consensus is that this would be an inadequate offer. What are your opinions on what it should it be, than? Aircraft engines, engineering technology for armored vehicles, radar, or something else? Perhaps some combination?
I will endeavor to cover the remaining period up to the war as quickly as possible.
The Japanese could use German help with developing and manufacturing their own inline engines, they would be useful for high altitude interception of enemy bombers an area where radial engines are not well suited for.
NoMommsen
Donor
TY for the answers and clarifications
, sry.
As a'lil side note of how "openly giving" the japanes were : while working on the designs of an own Aircraft carrier (worked on already in 1932) the japanese showed a german naval commision the AKAGI in autumn 1935. ... Unfortunatly the liason officers forgot to mention that the AKAGI was scheduled for an almost complete rebuild (regarding esp. the aircraft operations) just some very few weeks later (24.10.1935 IIRC).
The aircraft engines were more kind of a general request by the industry, less by one of the military branches themself. And therefore - I would assume - didn't make too much impression to the militarys themself - to give aways their goodies. And as "traded" in OTL without much of a repay ... merely for keeping up "good relations".
Armored vehicles ... dunno how strong the interest of the army was on that. Could assume that at this point (no Nomohan battle with baaad experience) they might render what they had well enough - givin their experience with the chinese.
IIRC they did some testing of their torpedos in 1936/37, but due to lack of personel as well as time as well as the money as well as the possibilities (no scrap ships to test on) there were very few tests, which were highly biased without the possibilities of decent "life tests" for getting the torps into production asap.
In 1940 up to 1942 IIRC there was even a court martial about that, revealing these deficiencies. So , noone was really blamed - and shot for.
Somehow missed this part
, sry.As the Long Lance was navy stuff, I would assume they would be more interested in the radar tech to bargain.
As a'lil side note of how "openly giving" the japanes were : while working on the designs of an own Aircraft carrier (worked on already in 1932) the japanese showed a german naval commision the AKAGI in autumn 1935. ... Unfortunatly the liason officers forgot to mention that the AKAGI was scheduled for an almost complete rebuild (regarding esp. the aircraft operations) just some very few weeks later (24.10.1935 IIRC).
The aircraft engines were more kind of a general request by the industry, less by one of the military branches themself. And therefore - I would assume - didn't make too much impression to the militarys themself - to give aways their goodies
. And as "traded" in OTL without much of a repay ... merely for keeping up "good relations".Armored vehicles ... dunno how strong the interest of the army was on that. Could assume that at this point (no Nomohan battle with baaad experience) they might render what they had well enough - givin their experience with the chinese.
Just for some info on this subject :To be honest, I don't know specifically.
IIRC they did some testing of their torpedos in 1936/37, but due to lack of personel as well as time as well as the money as well as the possibilities (no scrap ships to test on) there were very few tests, which were highly biased without the possibilities of decent "life tests" for getting the torps into production asap.
In 1940 up to 1942 IIRC there was even a court martial about that, revealing these deficiencies. So , noone was really blamed - and shot for.
I shiver with antici..........pation !
These predictions are generally accurate.
TY for the answers and clarificationsSomehow missed this part
As the Long Lance was navy stuff, I would assume they would be more interested in the radar tech to bargain.
As a'lil side note of how "openly giving" the japanes were : while working on the designs of an own Aircraft carrier (worked on already in 1932) the japanese showed a german naval commision the AKAGI in autumn 1935. ... Unfortunatly the liason officers forgot to mention that the AKAGI was scheduled for an almost complete rebuild (regarding esp. the aircraft operations) just some very few weeks later (24.10.1935 IIRC).
The aircraft engines were more kind of a general request by the industry, less by one of the military branches themself. And therefore - I would assume - didn't make too much impression to the militarys themself - to give aways their goodies
Armored vehicles ... dunno how strong the interest of the army was on that. Could assume that at this point (no Nomohan battle with baaad experience) they might render what they had well enough - givin their experience with the chinese.
Following from what I have gleaned from this feedback, the update has been edited to state that Germany gave Japan radar and inline engines specifically for the Long Lance. I hope this is now an adequate trade.
Interesting. In that case, I guess the justification in this TL would be that given the steel savings from Hitler's fixation on large surface ships not being a factor, the OKW is willing to allow more old ships to be used as target hulks. Given how unreliable German torpedoes turned out to be, I don't think it would take that many to realize the scope of the problem.
I shiver with antici..........pation !
The next updates for my TLs will be out as soon as possible.
Don't I know it.
Notes:
(a) Big shout-out to Gudestein for guessing that the war happens later than OTL. A more steady, methodical approach to rearmament culminating in a latter conflict is thus revealed as one of the major plot elements of TTL.
(b) Ever so slightly earlier than OTL. This isn’t too unbelievable, is it?
(c) Standardizing on one tank will bring a notable production boost.
(d) A few months earlier than OTL. Without Udet and Goering, I hope this isn't too unbelievable either.
(e) Since Wever lives and is running the Luftwaffe, the HE 177 doesn’t get the fused engine configuration and the FW 187 is chosen over the BF 110.
Next up, ships of the Kriegsmarine and WMDs.
I am back with only a little time, but back nevertheless.
a) Thanks
.Like the steal from US boeing engines. Why not. Solves many issues and there is a reason for it to happen although it is a lucky break
He118: In its original version is not really the fast, near 90 degree angle dive bomber. It would need a slimmer and stronger wing structure (was this was Messerschmitt really brought to the table) and obviously a more powerful engine to become this.
Picture the He-112A to B to He-100 transformation, this may not be impossible with Heinkel, but it require some explanation. As Wiking wat he thinks?
Alternatively, you could certainly get speed without 90 degree dives in such a development, but then you would miss the Ju-87.
Without Hitler, there seems to be nothing preventing the Heer for going all in on developing an assault rifle as a principal next gen infantry weapon. This seems a sure butterfly of your POD?
Nice, but a few comments. Most TL's which allow the Germans to discover their torpedo faults suffer heavy criticism. Life trials were simply not performed due to cost.
You'll need a reason as to why this is discovered and an import strategy chosen rather than ask the usual German engineers to try again.
It could be simply a search for better performance that lead them to look at Japan, and Japan getting access to really important technology in return as you outlined.
A rational Wagner not already obsessed with vengeance need a reason to go with the V-1. Its not too efficient in a situation were bombers are available.
Hint, its a cruise missile, air launched or chemical weapons carrying...
Hope this is useful.
Yes, its quite a trick simply to make it sensible and aimed at the actual kind of war they'll encounter. Crimsonking is doing a good job
NoMommsen
Donor
?? New to me, that Messerschmitt was somehow involved into the dive bomber competition ...
The He 118 wasn't completly finished on fligh-out date in OTL. And didn't had the dive-recovery-automatic installed. Therefore it couldn't perform the super-steep dives as the Ju 87 ... at that date.
Their wings werent much thicker than the Ju 87s, but had areodynaically a better performance already. Well the Ju 87 required a lot of changes until even preproduction. Same for He 118 ? but a whee bit fewer ?
. ... And in level flight it WAS faster.You're now on the fighter ? ... not the dive-bomber ?
He 112 was more evolved than Me 109 (call it a "german Spitfire"
, sry but ... I'm somehow a Heinkelist), but ... compared to Me 109 at that moment also more expensive and not as easy to produce.No, even though I really like the he 100, the Me 109 was from an overall view (including economics) the better choice.
... and getting yet another, additional calibre ammo to supply ?
If, then only in a rather looong run.
NoMommsen
Donor
... but it spares quite a lot of pilots, the LW at this early date (when not ?) was desperate looking for (therefor were the first two LW rearmament programs of Milch actual only about 1/3 fighting capable planes and 2/3 training planes ... or even more, would have to look up the precise numbers!).
... hmmm, maybe make it an army, not a LW development. What Heeres gun can deliver >800 kg of warhead ??... even more when made "only" for short range (10 - 20 km) (ok, the 60 cm Karl-Gerär was heavier, but beside only "Fat Bertha" was on par) ... and let it be guided by the otherwise usual artillery forward observer instead an automatic guidance system ?
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They were expecting to use them by the thousands as a war critical weapon system. Seems to me that it is not that outrageous a change that in a different atmosphere - in which more logic is in demand - someone orders actual testing done at some point. Or am I missing something about the historical reasons for the screwup?
NoMommsen
Donor
As they did in OTL.
It was a mixture of several lacks :
Lack of manpower in the "Torpedoversuchsanstalt" on specialists
(KM had only few specialists and overall engeneers after the no-build-up as well as being forced to send all those specialists away after ToV, IMCC and NIACC)
Lack of ships and manpower for testing
(You would have needed ships to be shot at in different sea conditions as well as regions [different magnetic fields and properties of water]. KM had no ships to be spared for just sinking them
)Lack of time
(To start the mass production it had to bee done ASAP. Also for getting zhe needed raw materials allocated, before LW gets all of them
)However, perhaps just butterfly that one of the officers on visit manage to make friends with his japanes counterpart. And ... during a nice karaoke booze he boasts about their fantastic Torpedos,
"better you haved in Great War"
"No, don't believe it !"
"Ohhh I will show (hick) ...
This could work, you just need a Japanese naval officer who loves his sake and Long Lances and a German naval officer who's generous with buying rounds for his new kamaraden.As they did in OTL.
It was a mixture of several lacks :
Lack of manpower in the "Torpedoversuchsanstalt" on specialists
(KM had only few specialists and overall engeneers after the no-build-up as well as being forced to send all those specialists away after ToV, IMCC and NIACC)
Lack of ships and manpower for testing
(You would have needed ships to be shot at in different sea conditions as well as regions [different magnetic fields and properties of water]. KM had no ships to be spared for just sinking them
Lack of time
(To start the mass production it had to bee done ASAP. Also for getting zhe needed raw materials allocated, before LW gets all of them
However, perhaps just butterfly that one of the officers on visit manage to make friends with his japanes counterpart. And ... during a nice karaoke booze he boasts about their fantastic Torpedos,
"better you haved in Great War"
"No, don't believe it !"
"Ohhh I will show (hick) ...
?? New to me, that Messerschmitt was somehow involved into the dive bomber competition ...
The He 118 wasn't completly finished on fligh-out date in OTL. And didn't had the dive-recovery-automatic installed. Therefore it couldn't perform the super-steep dives as the Ju 87 ... at that date.
Their wings werent much thicker than the Ju 87s, but had areodynaically a better performance already. Well the Ju 87 required a lot of changes until even preproduction. Same for He 118 ? but a whee bit fewer ?
You're now on the fighter ? ... not the dive-bomber ?
He 112 was more evolved than Me 109 (call it a "german Spitfire"
No, even though I really like the he 100, the Me 109 was from an overall view (including economics) the better choice.
... and getting yet another, additional calibre ammo to supply ?
If, then only in a rather looong run.
Hi NoMommsen,
You are missing the point of my post. It was not about the other types per se, but what they told us about the technologies and weapons development practices.
For the Me-108/9 and Messerschmitt's contribution:
"Another aspect of this construction technique was the use of a single box-spar in the wing, mounted near the leading edge. Most planes of the era used two spars, near the front and rear, but the box was much stiffer torsionally, and eliminated the need for the rear spar." (cf. http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/bf109.htm)
This was new technique at the time of the He-118 prototypes, but was available later.
The He-112A, He-112B, and He-100 fighters was meant to illustrate what kind of development path a mid 30's Heinkel design design could undergo in those years.
Picture He-118 and add the changes from He-112B and He-100 onto that design (including a thinner and/or stronger single Box-spar wing?) and you have a vastly improved He-118.
OK, understood ... I hope :
He 118 ... further developed along line like Me 109, He 100, ...
and getting the dive-recovery ...
...
You got it. I am however still skeptical that it could get both the very high speed and the near 90 degree dive-bombing but one or the other should be possible.
I am back with only a little time, but back nevertheless.
a) Thanks
Like the steal from US boeing engines. Why not. Solves many issues and there is a reason for it to happen although it is a lucky break
Improved industrial espionage is definitely one of the areas in which better German intelligence would have the most effect.
?? New to me, that Messerschmitt was somehow involved into the dive bomber competition ...
The He 118 wasn't completly finished on fligh-out date in OTL. And didn't had the dive-recovery-automatic installed. Therefore it couldn't perform the super-steep dives as the Ju 87 ... at that date.
Their wings werent much thicker than the Ju 87s, but had areodynaically a better performance already. Well the Ju 87 required a lot of changes until even preproduction. Same for He 118 ? but a whee bit fewer ?
You're now on the fighter ? ... not the dive-bomber ?
He 112 was more evolved than Me 109 (call it a "german Spitfire"
No, even though I really like the he 100, the Me 109 was from an overall view (including economics) the better choice.
OK, understood ... I hope :
He 118 ... further developed along line like Me 109, He 100, ...
and getting the dive-recovery ...
...
I have edited the update which covered aircraft to say that the fully developed HE 118 could dive at 70 degrees instead of 90 and had a maximum speed of 340 mph, the D4Y's top speed.
An assault rifle (the "Gewehr 44," OTL's STG 44) is being developed, it's just that it's too far off for a war starting in 1941. Also, having the Germans start with assault rifles might be just little too wankish, although I realize how that must sound coming from me...
My overall understanding is that the V-1 was a relatively cheap and cost efficient weapon and that it was the V-2 that was the big waste. In any case, as NoMommsen says, the attraction for Wagner is the missile's ability to strike targets without putting highly trained pilots at risk.
As they did in OTL.
It was a mixture of several lacks :
Lack of manpower in the "Torpedoversuchsanstalt" on specialists
(KM had only few specialists and overall engeneers after the no-build-up as well as being forced to send all those specialists away after ToV, IMCC and NIACC)
Lack of ships and manpower for testing
(You would have needed ships to be shot at in different sea conditions as well as regions [different magnetic fields and properties of water]. KM had no ships to be spared for just sinking them
Lack of time
(To start the mass production it had to bee done ASAP. Also for getting zhe needed raw materials allocated, before LW gets all of them
However, perhaps just butterfly that one of the officers on visit manage to make friends with his japanes counterpart. And ... during a nice karaoke booze he boasts about their fantastic Torpedos,
"better you haved in Great War"
"No, don't believe it !"
"Ohhh I will show (hick) ...
This could work, you just need a Japanese naval officer who loves his sake and Long Lances and a German naval officer who's generous with buying rounds for his new kamaraden.
So a solution satisfactory to everyone would be to simply have the Germans recognize the general inferiority of their torpedoes due to the backwardness of some of their naval technology and decide to purchase the Long Lance, without ever quite realizing how faulty theirs are?
Thanks again! Hope you continue to enjoy the TL.
Have a German naval officer stationed in Japan send a message back home about how impressed he was with the Japanese Long Lance and this leads the Germans to conduct some tests with their own torpedo, perhaps they work out a deal with the Italians to try out their torps on some old Italian vessels that the Italians are conducting torpedo tests ( Italian torpedoes were pretty good IIRC) of their own on and this leads the Germans to realize how inefficient German torpedoes are. Which then leads the Germans to make a deal with the Japanese for the Long Lance and maybe a deal with the Italians as well.Improved industrial espionage is definitely one of the areas in which better German intelligence would have the most effect.
I have edited the update which covered aircraft to say that the fully developed HE 118 could dive at 70 degrees instead of 90 and had a maximum speed of 340 mph, the D4Y's top speed.
An assault rifle (the "Gewehr 44," OTL's STG 44) is being developed, it's just that it's too far off for a war starting in 1941. Also, having the Germans start with assault rifles might be just little too wankish, although I realize how that must sound coming from me...
My overall understanding is that the V-1 was a relatively cheap and cost efficient weapon and that it was the V-2 that was the big waste. In any case, as NoMommsen says, the attraction for Wagner is the missile's ability to strike targets without putting highly trained pilots at risk.
So a solution satisfactory to everyone would be to simply have the Germans recognize the general inferiority of their torpedoes due to the backwardness of some of their naval technology and decide to purchase the Long Lance, without ever quite realizing how faulty theirs are?
Thanks again! Hope you continue to enjoy the TL.