Wagner’s Germany: An Axis Victory TL

cortz#9

CrimsonKing said:
Looking through them, it would seem it would be quite effective indeed, especially with improved engines.
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Wiking has done some very interesting threads on alternate German aircraft, armored vehicles and WWII battles. I should have recommended you look them up myself but it slipped my mind, plus I don't have any links to them.

I do agree that the Fw-187 hasn't run it's course yet, it will still have the advantage of superior performance at higher altitudes than most if not all Soviet single engine fighters. I would say it would keep this advantage until about 1943 when things will start to even out with the introduction of new Soviet fighters and by 1944 the Luftwaffe should start fielding a replacement if not sooner.
Again just my opinion.
 

CrimsonKing

cortz#9 said:
Wiking has done some very interesting threads on alternate German aircraft, armored vehicles and WWII battles. I should have recommended you look them up myself but it slipped my mind, plus I don't have any links to them.

I do agree that the Fw-187 hasn't run it's course yet, it will still have the advantage of superior performance at higher altitudes than most if not all Soviet single engine fighters. I would say it would keep this advantage until about 1943 when things will start to even out with the introduction of new Soviet fighters and by 1944 the Luftwaffe should start fielding a replacement if not sooner.
Again just my opinion.
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I don't disagree regarding its abilities as an escort fighter (of course, if events go as planned the targets will be close enough by 1943 that they can be reached by Fw 190s with drop tanks). As an air superiority fighter, I think its high speed and relative maneuverability for a two-engine fighter would allow it to remain competitive in the same way the P38 did.
 

cortz#9

Jaenera Targaryen said:
Isn't the Dornier Pfeil the Fw-287's predicted successor according to the last update?
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I think so and should be able to do the job nicely, the Do-335 had good speed -455 mph. and good range -1,336 miles. I've read it had decent maneuverability but that it displayed an effect called "porpoising" where the body of the twist back and forth due to the counter rotating pusher and puller propellers. I don't know how bad this problem was but I don't think airplanes ever crashed because of it.
 

Peebothuhlu

I believe the porpoising was evident in earlier experimental prototypes. The issue was resolved (Made less problem) by mounting the aft engine higher than the front.

Hence the Do 335's rather distinct 'hump' and the poor (Relatively) visibility astern which was partly alleviated by mounting mirrors on the canopy.

Actual expert opinion might vary. :)
 

cortz#9

Peebothuhlu said:
I believe the porpoising was evident in earlier experimental prototypes. The issue was resolved (Made less problem) by mounting the aft engine higher than the front.

Hence the Do 335's rather distinct 'hump' and the poor (Relatively) visibility astern which was partly alleviated by mounting mirrors on the canopy.

Actual expert opinion might vary. :)
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Interesting. :cool:
 

CrimsonKing

Jaenera Targaryen said:
Isn't the Dornier Pfeil the Fw-287's predicted successor according to the last update?
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Yes, but it isn't expected to be available in large enough numbers to replace the 187 entirely, not for some time at least.

cortz#9 said:
I think so and should be able to do the job nicely, the Do-335 had good speed -455 mph. and good range -1,336 miles. I've read it had decent maneuverability but that it displayed an effect called "porpoising" where the body of the twist back and forth due to the counter rotating pusher and puller propellers. I don't know how bad this problem was but I don't think airplanes ever crashed because of it.
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Peebothuhlu said:
I believe the porpoising was evident in earlier experimental prototypes. The issue was resolved (Made less problem) by mounting the aft engine higher than the front.

Hence the Do 335's rather distinct 'hump' and the poor (Relatively) visibility astern which was partly alleviated by mounting mirrors on the canopy.

Actual expert opinion might vary. :)
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cortz#9 said:
Interesting. :cool:
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For speed, in TTL I think it would be considerably faster due to proper engine development (not that 455 mph is bad).

Mounting the rear engine higher than the forward one is the remedy to the porpoising issue here as it was historically.
 

cortz#9

CrimsonKing said:
Yes, but it isn't expected to be available in large enough numbers to replace the 187 entirely, not for some time at least.







For speed, in TTL I think it would be considerably faster due to proper engine development (not that 455 mph is bad).

Mounting the rear engine higher than the forward one is the remedy to the porpoising issue here as it was historically.
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With drop tanks the range will be good enough to reach any target in the USSR. :cool:
 

Peebothuhlu

CrimsonKing

cortz#9 said:
With drop tanks the range will be good enough to reach any target in the USSR. :cool:
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Quite, long range being an advantage of a larger aircraft.

Peebothuhlu said:
From fading memory there was space under the pilot for a small bomb bay? Build a version where it's all fuel and she should go a good distance.

Side view image on this page shows aux tank in bay. :)

http://www.karaya.pl/en/rvresin/37/dornier-do-335-1-72-detail-scale-aircraft-drawings-rv1008.html?ref=/en/rvresin/37/3/1/items.html

Also note difference in nose wheel between 'A' and 'B' models.

Beefed up landing gear. Nose wheel had to retract almost sideways to fit into hull.
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IIRC the bomb bay was enough for 500 kg.

The landing gear will of course be given the necessary reinforcement before going into production in TTL.
 

cortz#9

CrimsonKing said:
Quite, long range being an advantage of a larger aircraft.



IIRC the bomb bay was enough for 500 kg.

The landing gear will of course be given the necessary reinforcement before going into production in TTL.
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Good speed, good range and maneuverability that was almost as good as that of a single engine fighter.
Thank God the Germans didn't get them into mass production. :eek:
 

Peebothuhlu

cortz#9 said:
Good speed, good range and maneuverability that was almost as good as that of a single engine fighter.
Thank God the Germans didn't get them into mass production. :eek:
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Again from fading memory bit...

I seem to recall that Dorneir had been experimenting with extension shaft drives for quite a while. (Can't remember the designation of the prototype, but I've seen pictures of it. An elegant 'Pusher' design)

Initially, within the circles of the higher ups (And the weird things going on in the RLM) the ideas were pretty much ignored. It seems that only when the wheels of war had well and truly fallen off that every body panicked and then it was carteblanch (sp?) for every possible design to be given the go ahead.

Indeed, what may have been IRL had Dorneier been given a little bit more funding... or encouragement... or less political interference? There was the Uhu which seemed to get no 'love' either...?

Um... sorry for the rambling... what I'm possibly trying to say is that it seems more the shamozzle that was the political side of things that kept machines such as the 335 still born.
With '20/20 hind sight' I'm kind of confident in saying that something like the 335 could have been flying by 43, easily. Other than working out the 'porpoising'... there's nothing fundamentally 'radical' about the engineering of the plane. )Especially when considering machines such as the Bv 141. :p )

Cheers
 

cortz#9

Peebothuhlu said:
Again from fading memory bit...

I seem to recall that Dorneir had been experimenting with extension shaft drives for quite a while. (Can't remember the designation of the prototype, but I've seen pictures of it. An elegant 'Pusher' design)

Initially, within the circles of the higher ups (And the weird things going on in the RLM) the ideas were pretty much ignored. It seems that only when the wheels of war had well and truly fallen off that every body panicked and then it was carteblanch (sp?) for every possible design to be given the go ahead.

Indeed, what may have been IRL had Dorneier been given a little bit more funding... or encouragement... or less political interference? There was the Uhu which seemed to get no 'love' either...?

Um... sorry for the rambling... what I'm possibly trying to say is that it seems more the shamozzle that was the political side of things that kept machines such as the 335 still born.
With '20/20 hind sight' I'm kind of confident in saying that something like the 335 could have been flying by 43, easily. Other than working out the 'porpoising'... there's nothing fundamentally 'radical' about the engineering of the plane. )Especially when considering machines such as the Bv 141. :p )

Cheers
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I quite agree with you, had things been a little different the Do-335 could've been in the service at least a year earlier but part of the problem wasn't just the radical design but the fact that Dornier was a main provider of bombers and the higher ups felt he should leave the designing of fighters to the companies that were already building fighters.
I wonder if things might have gone smoother if Dornier had tried to sell the D0-335 as a fast bomber instead?
 

CrimsonKing

cortz#9 said:
Good speed, good range and maneuverability that was almost as good as that of a single engine fighter.
Thank God the Germans didn't get them into mass production. :eek:
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I agree that it would have caused major problems for the Allies, inasmuch as any one plane could have altered the situation.

Peebothuhlu said:
Again from fading memory bit...

I seem to recall that Dorneir had been experimenting with extension shaft drives for quite a while. (Can't remember the designation of the prototype, but I've seen pictures of it. An elegant 'Pusher' design)

Initially, within the circles of the higher ups (And the weird things going on in the RLM) the ideas were pretty much ignored. It seems that only when the wheels of war had well and truly fallen off that every body panicked and then it was carteblanch (sp?) for every possible design to be given the go ahead.

Indeed, what may have been IRL had Dorneier been given a little bit more funding... or encouragement... or less political interference? There was the Uhu which seemed to get no 'love' either...?

Um... sorry for the rambling... what I'm possibly trying to say is that it seems more the shamozzle that was the political side of things that kept machines such as the 335 still born.
With '20/20 hind sight' I'm kind of confident in saying that something like the 335 could have been flying by 43, easily. Other than working out the 'porpoising'... there's nothing fundamentally 'radical' about the engineering of the plane. )Especially when considering machines such as the Bv 141. :p )

Cheers
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I am trying not to give TTL's RLM hindsight. I think, with Wever directing the Luftwaffe and the great promise shown by the design and it being prioritized as a result, the first prototypes would fly in early 1943, followed by several months of refinement and production around late 43-early 44 as projected in the update.

cortz#9 said:
I quite agree with you, had things been a little different the Do-335 could've been in the service at least a year earlier but part of the problem wasn't just the radical design but the fact that Dornier was a main provider of bombers and the higher ups felt he should leave the designing of fighters to the companies that were already building fighters.
I wonder if things might have gone smoother if Dornier had tried to sell the D0-335 as a fast bomber instead?
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Well, in TTL Junkers and Heinkel are the main bomber providers, so Dornier as a producer of fighters wouldn't seem as novel.
 

cortz#9

CrimsonKing said:
<snip>



Well, in TTL Junkers and Heinkel are the main bomber providers, so Dornier as a producer of fighters wouldn't seem as novel.
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This would improve things for Dornier and since Dornier is not one of the main providers of bombers ITTL, it could probably really use the business.
In hindsight the Do-335 could have served a lot of roles.
 

Peebothuhlu

I believe there's been discussion.. maybe even on the boards here... about some of the seeming inefficiencies and waste inherent in the Nazi bureaucratic system.

Such that, even mid war factories weren't used or were underutilized etc because "X company only builds Y and that's what they should stick too!" No seeming thought for "Well X company has Z factories barely producing washing machines atm... Lets see if we can re-tool the place to make something else."

Hence comments about Dorneir not being too stretched in its capacity to make the 335 along side what ever else it is (Or, in real time line 'Was') producing.

Looking at the American system.. maybe they went too far in the other direction?

"Have ALL the car factories make X tank NOW! ALL the time!"

"Um.. but what if...?"

"NO 'What ifs?' ! ALL the factories! ALL that type of tank! ALL the time!"

*America builds oodles of light/medium Shermies*

*Tankers encounter Tiger* :hushedface:

"EEP! We need this other type of tank!"

"Too bad. Only making this one."

But, then again reading about some of the bureaucratic strangeness that came from within British bureaucracy maybe ALL such over arching structures develop such problems (Read the 'Radial fighters for RAF thread. Some amazing comments about the English engine designers and their outlooks/behaviors)... it's just different problems growing out of the fundamental different 'Worldviews' of said bureaucracies...
 
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