Wagner’s Germany: An Axis Victory TL

[Jaenera Targaryen]

While aircraft is good and all, don't forget the army. While the up-gunned Panzer IV is competitive against the T-34, as the latter gets upgraded and newer tank models are pumped out the Panzer IV won't be able to keep pace. The Panther needs to be put to production, or an equivalent thereof. The Tiger and Tiger II aren't really necessary, STUGs were competitive for virtually the entire war AFAIK (their only problem was the tungsten cores needed for AP rounds were in short supply IIRC). Though, there's no need to rush either. As I said, up-gunned Panzer IVs could match the T-34, so slowly phasing it out with Panthers is a viable tactic.

Also, I note that the OKW seems to predict the conclusion of the Soviet campaign to be the end of 1943 at the latest. While I think the war would probably drag out to the middle of 1944 at worst, more importantly how things go in Eurasia will affect the 1944 elections, possibly enough to get FDR or one of his disciples into the White House. And they won't stand for Axis domination of Eurasia and Africa. I think that's something the Axis should be worrying about even now, if only in the basic terms.

Finally, with the Treaty of Tehran and the end of the Second Sino-Japanese War, am I right in assuming the US embargo on Japan has also been lifted?

EDIT: How far did the embargo go anyway? OTL or considering the Dewey Administration's isolationist bent 'softened' to avoid backing the Japanese into a corner?

 

[cortz#9]

As far as tanks go unless German intelligence has learned about the T-34 and how effective it's sloped armor is, Germany will not be designing or putting the Panther into production.
Instead Germany will most likely go ahead with with one of it's VK-projects, such as the VK-3001 (H) -

A heavy tank design, basically an up armored Pz.-IV with interleaved wheels, at least one 3001H was built but then development was suspended because the VK3061 appeared to be a better design.
There was also the VK-3001 (P) A Porsche medium tank design, the 3001P had promise but its Porsche designed gas-electric dual engine combo posed problems, also armor wasn't much better than that of the Pz.-IV.

Work on the 3001P was suspended when the Germans encountered the T-34.

VK-3061 a Henschel heavy tank design, two prototypes were built but then worked stopped because Hitler ordered a larger more powerful heavy tank be built after reviewing data gathered after the battle of France showed a need for more powerful tanks and this led to the Tiger-I.

All three tanks were armed long barreled the 7.5cm KwK L/24 cannon.

In this timeline its possible that a heavy tank goes into production but Wagner may feel a medium tank is needed to replace the Pz.-IV so then work might continue on the VK-3001(P) or perhaps an order for a new medium tank designed is placed.

My guess is that the Tiger would go into production as Germany's heavy tank but a medium tank would still be needed.
So either an improved VK-3001(P) or an all new alternate medium tank design.

 

[Mosshadow]

Nice story so far. Can you add threadmarks though?

 

[crazyself00]

Nice story so far. Can you add threadmarks though?

There is an index in the author firm.

 

[Random Walk]

As far as tanks go unless German intelligence has learned about the T-34 and how effective it's sloped armor is, Germany will not be designing or putting the Panther into production.

I'm pretty sure that in the Dilemma And Decisions chapter Germany DID find out about that T-34 when the SU began its exercises.

 

[cortz#9]

I'm pretty sure that in the Dilemma And Decisions chapter Germany DID find out about that T-34 when the SU began its exercises.

I've heard that they did and I've heard that they didn't but it wasn't until the Germans encountered the T-34 in combat and saw how effective sloped armor was that the Germans ordered a medium tank design that employed sloped armor.
So even if the Germans know about the T-34, it doesn't mean they'll copy it's sloped armor.

 

[Bosemacher]

I've heard that they did and I've heard that they didn't but it wasn't until the Germans encountered the T-34 in combat and saw how effective sloped armor was that the Germans ordered a medium tank design that employed sloped armor.
So even if the Germans know about the T-34, it doesn't mean they'll copy it's sloped armor.

French SOMUA 35 tanks captured in 1940 also had sloped armor. I have no clue if this influenced German tank design.

 

[cortz#9]

French SOMUA 35 tanks captured in 1940 also had sloped armor. I have no clue if this influenced German tank design.

I've never heard of the SOMUA influencing German tank designs but the Char B1 heavy tank influenced the Germans to design heavy tanks and to mount the 8.8 gun on AFVs.

 

[Jotun]

Sloped armor isn't exactly rocket science and certainly not something that can be butterflied away, especially since the principle has been around for ages. Just take a look at medieval armor. Sooner or later even a German engineer will have a eureka moment.

 

[cortz#9]

Sloped armor isn't exactly rocket science and certainly not something that can be butterflied away, especially since the principle has been around for ages. Just take a look at medieval armor. Sooner or later even a German engineer will have a eureka moment.

The Germans knew all about sloped armor before the war began but didn't think it was that effective until they encountered the T-34. Why they felt this way, I don't know but other armies also knew about sloped armor before the war and didn't use it either.
I believe Japan had a light tank before the war that had sloped armor but never used it on any other tank.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

I've read that;

1) The engineers and designers could handle bolting things onto 'flat' plates easier.

2) That there is an' ergonomic' side to things. The internal space under sloped armor gets... cramped and 'weird' to place both equipment and personnel into/under.

3) I very vaguely remember reading some where about how designers had a hard time(?) with placing the bow machine-gunner's mount onto/into a sloped plate... or something along those lines...

4) The actual reason for sloping the plates on the T-34 in the first place came along because some one on the Russian side of things went over combat records and noted that the BT-7M and T-60 with their sloped forwards plates had actually survived 'netter' than the larger tanks (On 'average') and that it was records of German shot 'bouncing' and ricocheting which led to test which led to sloping the T-34.... (*Side, note... it was pretty much the same thing with reactive armor. People looking at missile hits in the Israel - Arab wars and noting how weapon strikes of shaped charges had physically interacted with hulls.)

The German's when they encountered the bigger French tanks? They just and simply gave orders for the plates to be made thicker. Hence the shape of the Tiger is pretty much the same as the Pz-3 & 4. You're just working harder to put a round through the hull of the Tiger because there's simply 'MAOR' of it.

So... theory gives way to examining actual combat practice?

 

[CrimsonKing]

I agree that the need for nightfighters wouldn't be high priority ITTL, however once the Germans invade Russia they will encounter light and even bi-plane bombers that do night time harassment strikes against German positions. IOTL the Germans never really found a counter these simple raids except tot to provide more flak units.
It would be interesting if the Germans came up with a solution to these night time raiders in this TL, maybe Henschel Hs-123 could be used to do low level night time patrols over likely targets.

For strategic bombers I could see Heinkel continuing to further develop the He-177 or build a new bomber with the lessons learned from the He-177. Messerschmidt could also still develop the Me-264 as well.

The night harassment raids will be a problem, but the Germans don't realize it yet.

At work.

Just a comment.

The 'Long nose' of Fw 190 (Also the later machine Ta 152) with an actual, working, has the bugs out because politics isn't changing the goal posts during engine design powered by a 20000 Hp Jumo 222 engine would also be as 'Thoroughbred' as the British engined/American built A 36 Apache. ... Um, *Cough*, oh yes 'P-51' Mustang.

Yeah I could see that happening here ITTL.

The long nose Fw 190/Ta 152 are definitely coming in TTL, they are what is meant by "new variants already in development."

At work.

Actually. ... that's a thing. Have relations between the Brits and Yanks been such that they are all peachy 'Tech sharing' as it were?

Looking at some aspects of the history. The Americans never did seem all that too crash hot that one of the preeminent airframes built by them was powered to victory by a British heart.

Then there's the Brit Firefly. Good gun in a good hull. Yank high ups forbade mass conversion/production. Hence only what? One in five or six Brit Shermans were 'Lancers'?

If such machines don't develop on the Allies side? Since the events have changed enough?

Just some more musings.

As I see it, with peace in the west, this level of trans-Atlantic technological cooperation hasn't been initiated in TTL, not yet at least.

I like this section, however without direct interference from Udet,the He-177 is going straight to the He-177B. Even if you dont like it that is a very much superior aircraft and very easy to evolve into he274 or he277.

Yes. Here, the designation He 177 refers to what in OTL was called the He 177B, there not having been a 177A in TTL.

Just a little something I remember stumbling across on the net.

http://roen911.deviantart.com/art/Focke-Wulf-Fw-230-Erla-413435468

Spoiler

"Here we see Oberst-Lieutenant Hans Straader in his personal mount '9.5'.

A modified Ta 152 actually comprised of his initial machine which had received serious wing damage in action over the Eastern provinces but he managed to nurse the stricken plane back to an air field.

While the plane was taken off the records, Straader didn't quite want to part with the machine which had managed to stay in the air long enough to let him reach safety so he used his rank/authority to have the plane 'stored' and shipped back to his home airfield.

While Straader was recuperating, he found his skills had brought him to the attention of the Technical dept and he'd been transferred to a research post.

Initially fearing the base would be a desk job and nothing but administration he soon found that his skills as a pilot were indeed needed as a 'Chase plane' aviator.

It was when Straader managed to have his beloved mount shipped to his new base that he came across an interesting discovery.

Some of the early testing for the metamorphosis of Fw into Ta had also been done at the base and that there were a couple of air frames, engines and other various parts to be found.

What resulted was something looked bizarre but had it's history in the He-111z Gigant glider tug.

The resultant machine dubbed 'Nine and a Half' soon showed it had the endurance to maintain long protective over flights above the base as well as that it's central, short 'stub wing' was adaptable enough that the machine was soon being used as a weapon's test platform in its own right.

The image here is of Straader watching over the initial flight phase of Professor Lippisch trans-sonic and super-sonic experimental air frame.

Very sorry for taking up space! Couldn't resist.

^ Cool Pic. I don't think we'd see the P.13 (plane in the background) ITTL, it a point defense fighter to be used against the day time strategic bomber offensive and there's no need for that here but I do believe Alexander Lippisch would be receiving funds for his research into delta winged aircraft.
The twin-fuselage Focke Wulf is an interesting design, both the Allies and the Axis experimented with twin-fuselage aircraft for extended range.

If the Germans launch a strategic bombing campaign against the Soviets, a plane like the twin-fuselage Fw-190 shown here would be a good long range escort fighter. I'm not sure how good the maneuverability would be though.

Actually, while it is some what similar in flight profile like the Me 163, in all its performance is better than the other machine. Plus, no expensive equipment other than the starter rocket and weapons. The 'Testing' being being made out of wood and metal/steel etc. The Lippisch machine had stats like this:

So... while the above is certainly acceptable for 'Experimental' purposes to explore Mach 2 flight envelopes... the later version with undercarriage and a better fuel loading system would probably be in development when the performance of a Mach 2 capable machine is demonstrated.

Again, sorry for adding too much into the thread. Please let me know if doing such is poor form.

Cheers.

The images are fine. I hadn't realized what an interesting aircraft the P.13 was.

For long range escort aircraft, as of now there's the Fw 187, although as it remained in the end a prototype plane in OTL I'm somewhat unsure of how much effectiveness to attribute to it in such a role.

I personally love the pics and the stats you've posted here.
I'm not sure how things might play out here as far as rocket powered and scram jet engines for aircraft are concerned, Wagner seems to have a good head for the importance of evolving technology but he won't invest Reich resources on every advanced high tech project that comes along either.
He didn't put the V-2 into mass production for instance, in OTL Hitler had to be convinced of every single military innovation that Germany came up with. Hitler was strongly opposed at first with the following weapon systems:
Me-262 jet fighter, V-2 rocket, STG-44 assault rifle and many other innovative technological systems that Germany was at the forefront of.

Will Wagner be any different? He seems more practical than Hitler was but then Hitler was in the end convinced of the possibilities of the posted weapon systems.
The rocket fighter was developed in Germany because the Luftwaffe high command saw the possibilities of a point defense fighter to protect cities and industrial centers from enemy bombers but here that threat doesn't exist. However if Germany goes big with the "jet", the higher ups might see the advantages with experimenting with even more advanced concept than jets.

Just my two cents.

At work.

*Nods* Thank'e.

Was just pointing out that Lippisch work has the potential to deliver a machine capable and controllable into flight regimes leaps and bounds over contemporaries.

Pretty sure it was Lippisch work went into the French Lorraine mixed ram+jet prototypes after the war Real Time.

It was Lippisch work which gave the Me 163 its shape. The rocket engine and its fuel supply were the bottle neck.

I have the concept illustrations for the piston conversion for the Me 163.

Cheers.

Lippisch was a true innovator and I can see him taking his work farther here than he did in OTL. Germany here could introduce delta winged aircraft much earlier than was the case in OTL.

At work.

Actuall the French designer Payen (PA 22 will give a wiki link/image) was also well advanced with delta research. I have images of the design he tried to interest the Germans in after capitulation.

Again, very sorry if speculative stuff should not go here.

Rocket and scram jet engines will probably be explored, as will delta aircraft, just not for introduction in the near future.

While aircraft is good and all, don't forget the army. While the up-gunned Panzer IV is competitive against the T-34, as the latter gets upgraded and newer tank models are pumped out the Panzer IV won't be able to keep pace. The Panther needs to be put to production, or an equivalent thereof. The Tiger and Tiger II aren't really necessary, STUGs were competitive for virtually the entire war AFAIK (their only problem was the tungsten cores needed for AP rounds were in short supply IIRC). Though, there's no need to rush either. As I said, up-gunned Panzer IVs could match the T-34, so slowly phasing it out with Panthers is a viable tactic.

Also, I note that the OKW seems to predict the conclusion of the Soviet campaign to be the end of 1943 at the latest. While I think the war would probably drag out to the middle of 1944 at worst, more importantly how things go in Eurasia will affect the 1944 elections, possibly enough to get FDR or one of his disciples into the White House. And they won't stand for Axis domination of Eurasia and Africa. I think that's something the Axis should be worrying about even now, if only in the basic terms.

Finally, with the Treaty of Tehran and the end of the Second Sino-Japanese War, am I right in assuming the US embargo on Japan has also been lifted?

EDIT: How far did the embargo go anyway? OTL or considering the Dewey Administration's isolationist bent 'softened' to avoid backing the Japanese into a corner?

The most recent update is just the first part of the chapter. Ground weapons will be examined in the next section.

Regarding the projected timetable for the USSR's defeat, there's a rather specific reason which has yet to be revealed why it is believed to be short.

The position of the US is a major concern for the Axis, but there's only so much that can be done to address it. They're avoiding tensions with Britain as much as possible, cultivating commercial ties in the US and doing their best to cultivate a good image there.

The embargo was the same as in OTL, but yes it was lifted soon after the return of peace.

As far as tanks go unless German intelligence has learned about the T-34 and how effective it's sloped armor is, Germany will not be designing or putting the Panther into production.
Instead Germany will most likely go ahead with with one of it's VK-projects, such as the VK-3001 (H) -

A heavy tank design, basically an up armored Pz.-IV with interleaved wheels, at least one 3001H was built but then development stopped because of the discovery of the T-34 (in combat)

There was also the VK-3001 (P) A Porsche medium tank design, the 3001P had promise but its Porsche designed gas-electric dual engine combo posed problems, also armor wasn't much better than that of the Pz.-IV.

Work on the 3001P was suspended when the Germans encountered the T-34.

VK-3061 a Henschel heavy tank design, two prototypes were built but then worked stopped because the Germans learned of the T-34 (in combat) and instead put the Tiger-I into production.

All three tanks were armed long barreled the 7.5cm KwK L/24 cannon.

In this timeline its possible that one of these tanks goes into production, most likely one of the two heavy tank designs or if Wagner feels a medium tank replacement for the Pz.-IV is necessary, then work might continue on the VK-3001(P) or perhaps an order for a new medium tank designed is placed.

My guess is that the VK-3061 (H) would go into production (it went further into development than the other two designs) as Germany's heavy tank but a medium tank would still be needed.
So either an improved VK-3001(P) or an all new alternate medium tank design.

I'm pretty sure that in the Dilemma And Decisions chapter Germany DID find out about that T-34 when the SU began its exercises.

I've heard that they did and I've heard that they didn't but it wasn't until the Germans encountered the T-34 in combat and saw how effective sloped armor was that the Germans ordered a medium tank design that employed sloped armor.
So even if the Germans know about the T-34, it doesn't mean they'll copy it's sloped armor.

French SOMUA 35 tanks captured in 1940 also had sloped armor. I have no clue if this influenced German tank design.

I've never heard of the SOMUA influencing German tank designs but the Char B1 heavy tank influenced the Germans to design heavy tanks and to mount the 8.8 gun on AFVs.

Sloped armor isn't exactly rocket science and certainly not something that can be butterflied away, especially since the principle has been around for ages. Just take a look at medieval armor. Sooner or later even a German engineer will have a eureka moment.

The Germans knew all about sloped armor before the war began but didn't think it was that effective until they encountered the T-34. Why they felt this way, I don't know but other armies also knew about sloped armor before the war and didn't use it either.
I believe Japan had a light tank before the war that had sloped armor but never used it on any other tank.

I've read that;

1) The engineers and designers could handle bolting things onto 'flat' plates easier.

2) That there is an' ergonomic' side to things. The internal space under sloped armor gets... cramped and 'weird' to place both equipment and personnel into/under.

3) I very vaguely remember reading some where about how designers had a hard time(?) with placing the bow machine-gunner's mount onto/into a sloped plate... or something along those lines...

4) The actual reason for sloping the plates on the T-34 in the first place came along because some one on the Russian side of things went over combat records and noted that the BT-7M and T-60 with their sloped forwards plates had actually survived 'netter' than the larger tanks (On 'average') and that it was records of German shot 'bouncing' and ricocheting which led to test which led to sloping the T-34.... (*Side, note... it was pretty much the same thing with reactive armor. People looking at missile hits in the Israel - Arab wars and noting how weapon strikes of shaped charges had physically interacted with hulls.)

The German's when they encountered the bigger French tanks? They just and simply gave orders for the plates to be made thicker. Hence the shape of the Tiger is pretty much the same as the Pz-3 & 4. You're just working harder to put a round through the hull of the Tiger because there's simply 'MAOR' of it.

So... theory gives way to examining actual combat practice?

ITTL the Abwehr first learned of the T-34 as a result of its use during the war with Finland in late 1941. The subsequent Red Army exercises reinforced awareness of how widespread the vehicle was. The extent to which such information would influence German tank design towards the adoption of sloped armor before directly facing the T-34 themselves is something I could see going either way.

Nice story so far. Can you add threadmarks though?

There is an index in the author firm.

I will consider adding them as time allows.

 

[cortz#9]

I also read that the internal space taken up by using sloped armor was a factor why the Germans didn't employ it in their early designs, their Hannamog halftracks interestingly enough did use angled armor.

 

[cortz#9]

The night harassment raids will be a problem, but the Germans don't realize it yet.





The long nose Fw 190/Ta 152 are definitely coming in TTL, they are what is meant by "new variants already in development."



<snip>

For long range escort aircraft, as of now there's the Fw 187, although as it remained in the end a prototype plane in OTL I'm somewhat unsure of how much effectiveness to attribute to it in such a role.









<snip>

It makes sense that the Germans wouldn't have a clue about the night raider problem before the war even begins but they'll learn of it soon enough and most likely any solution they come up with will be an ad hoc one.
I think the Fw-187 will do fine as a long range escort for the first year of the war, most Soviet fighters of the era were good at mid to low altitudes so the 187 being good at high altitudes should be fine for a while but as Soviet single engine fighters improve, it's days will be numbered.
Messerschmidt built a couple of twin fuselage Me-109s in OTL and I think the idea of using such a plane for long ranges holds merit but I think the idea would work better if both fuselages can take a pilot, this way one pilot could fly the first half of the mission and the second pilot could fly for the second half.
If enemy fighters make an appearance, the more experienced pilot would takeover and if he is wounded, the other pilot could take over.

Of course the P51 Mustang did a better job of solving the need for a long distance fighter but the Germans didn't come up with the same solution IOTL and there's no reason to assume they would ITTL.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

I could/can see the Flettner machines being used to counter the night raids. A small machine like the 282 Kolibri with the better engines available would be both easy to transport. Quick to e on station. Able to stay 'with' the intruder. Armed with machine guns it would be able to drive the intruder off/possibly shoot it down.

Plus also doubling as daytime 'spotter' for larger formations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flettner_Fl_282

 

[cortz#9]

I could/can see the Flettner machines being used to counter the night raids. A small machine like the 282 Kolibri with the better engines available would be both easy to transport. Quick to e on station. Able to stay 'with' the intruder. Armed with machine guns it would be able to drive the intruder off/possibly shoot it down.

Plus also doubling as daytime 'spotter' for larger formations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flettner_Fl_282

Not a bad idea, there were plans to mount two MGs on the Kolibri and mounts for small bombs.

 

[cortz#9]

The Focke Achgelis 223 was another German helicopter that could have been produced in large numbers but production was seriously slowed down after an RAF bombing raid.

There were plans to build a new version with tandem propellers.

 

[CrimsonKing]

I also read that the internal space taken up by using sloped armor was a factor why the Germans didn't employ it in their early designs, their Hannamog halftracks interestingly enough did use angled armor.

I've also read the same thing. It raises the possibility that ITTL German tanks might actually move to sloped armor later than historically since the Panzer IV/T-34 mismatch won't be as pronounced.

It makes sense that the Germans wouldn't have a clue about the night raider problem before the war even begins but they'll learn of it soon enough and most likely any solution they come up with will be an ad hoc one.
I think the Fw-187 will do fine as a long range escort for the first year of the war, most Soviet fighters of the era were good at mid to low altitudes so the 187 being good at high altitudes should be fine for a while but as Soviet single engine fighters improve, it's days will be numbered.
Messerschmidt built a couple of twin fuselage Me-109s in OTL and I think the idea of using such a plane for long ranges holds merit but I think the idea would work better if both fuselages can take a pilot, this way one pilot could fly the first half of the mission and the second pilot could fly for the second half.
If enemy fighters make an appearance, the more experienced pilot would takeover and if he is wounded, the other pilot could take over.

Of course the P51 Mustang did a better job of solving the need for a long distance fighter but the Germans didn't come up with the same solution IOTL and there's no reason to assume they would ITTL.

I could/can see the Flettner machines being used to counter the night raids. A small machine like the 282 Kolibri with the better engines available would be both easy to transport. Quick to e on station. Able to stay 'with' the intruder. Armed with machine guns it would be able to drive the intruder off/possibly shoot it down.

Plus also doubling as daytime 'spotter' for larger formations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flettner_Fl_282

Not a bad idea, there were plans to mount two MGs on the Kolibri and mounts for small bombs.

The Focke Achgelis 223 was another German helicopter that could have been produced in large numbers but production was seriously slowed down after an RAF bombing raid.

There were plans to build a new version with tandem propellers.

Helicopter development being sped up by the need to counter night raids is a promising idea, this being as pointed out an area where the lack of bombing has a greatly noticeable effect.

For German single engine fighters with range comparable to the P51's, in OTL there was eventually the Ta 152, which according to wiki had a range of 1240 mi, comparable to the 1,650 mi of the P51, although obviously it won't enter service in time for the Soviet war.

 

[Gudestein]

For long range escort aircraft, as of now there's the Fw 187, although as it remained in the end a prototype plane in OTL I'm somewhat unsure of how much effectiveness to attribute to it in such a role.
.

Try to see some of Wikings threads dedicated to the subject.

 

[CrimsonKing]

Try to see some of Wikings threads dedicated to the subject.

Looking through them, it would seem it would be quite effective indeed, especially with improved engines.