Wagner’s Germany: An Axis Victory TL

[cortz#9]

I believe that I read that one of the biggest technologic challenges to the jet engines was getting the metallurgy correct. Because of the extremely high temperatures the turbo fans would fail after as little as 6 flight hours causing catastrophic results for the plane and pilot.

Because of the dire straights of the Luftwaffe in OTL, the jet was rushed into service prior to being a reliable weapon. Due to the peace between the Allies and Germany I don't see the rush to "get ahead" when German cities were not being bombed. I would say some would enter service towards the end of 43 but you wouldn't really see entire squadrons until mid to late 44.

I am not an expert on this subject, but based on what I've read this seems a reasonable time frame.

I agree with this, development of jet aircraft would go smoother and maybe a little quicker than OTL but actual deployment of jet aircraft would probably be a little slower than OTL.
Ironically ITTL jets would most likely enter service at the earliest mid 1945 but they would be more reliable aircraft than those of OTL IMO.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Definately no expert myself.

Could it be said there were two issues/problems dove-tailing together?

The airframe design/development aspect. The engine design/development.

Some airframes had been 'In the works' for quite some time.

The Horten brothers hed been working the 'kinks' out of their wing designs effectivly since before they were pilots.

The 262's famous wing shape came about purely due to the bigger mass of the Jumo engines and a quick/dirty Centre of Gravity 'Fix' was the move the wings, hence where the engines sat in relation to everything else.

Then there's Proff Lippitch who'd been refining deltas along with the Frenchman Mr Payen who also tried to get the current estsblishment/'Overlords' interested in using his deltas.

Just some musings.

 

[CrimsonKing]

I believe that I read that one of the biggest technologic challenges to the jet engines was getting the metallurgy correct. Because of the extremely high temperatures the turbo fans would fail after as little as 6 flight hours causing catastrophic results for the plane and pilot.

Because of the dire straights of the Luftwaffe in OTL, the jet was rushed into service prior to being a reliable weapon. Due to the peace between the Allies and Germany I don't see the rush to "get ahead" when German cities were not being bombed. I would say some would enter service towards the end of 43 but you wouldn't really see entire squadrons until mid to late 44.

I am not an expert on this subject, but based on what I've read this seems a reasonable time frame.

I agree with this, development of jet aircraft would go smoother and maybe a little quicker than OTL but actual deployment of jet aircraft would probably be a little slower than OTL.
Ironically ITTL jets would most likely enter service at the earliest mid 1945 but they would be more reliable aircraft than those of OTL IMO.

So you think the TTL focus for the next generation would be more on advanced piston planes?

At work.

Definately no expert myself.

Could it be said there were two issues/problems dove-tailing together?

The airframe design/development aspect. The engine design/development.

Some airframes had been 'In the works' for quite some time.

The Horten brothers hed been working the 'kinks' out of their wing designs effectivly since before they were pilots.

The 262's famous wing shape came about purely due to the bigger mass of the Jumo engines and a quick/dirty Centre of Gravity 'Fix' was the move the wings, hence where the engines sat in relation to everything else.

Then there's Proff Lippitch who'd been refining deltas along with the Frenchman Mr Payen who also tried to get the current estsblishment/'Overlords' interested in using his deltas.

Just some musings.

These are pertinent issues. On the whole, I've been assuming that both airframe and engine design remain more or less the same as OTL, because I don't want to inadvertently attribute unrealistically optimal designs. It is probably true, though, that the very large divergences which have occurred since 1933 in TTL would result in changes.

 

[cortz#9]

So you think the TTL focus for the next generation would be more on advanced piston planes?



These are pertinent issues. On the whole, I've been assuming that both airframe and engine design remain more or less the same as OTL, because I don't want to inadvertently attribute unrealistically optimal designs. It is probably true, though, that the very large divergences which have occurred since 1933 in TTL would result in changes.

Yeah unless the Germans find themselves at war with Britain again or the US, I don't see them rushing the development of jet aircraft but when they do introduce them, they will be much more reliable and deadly than the OTL German jets.
I think in this timeline we would see the Me-410 (and I think it would be a better plane than it was in OTL and do well in Russia)and Focke Wulf Fw-190D (long nose) enter service and we would see replacements for the He-111 and Junkers Ju-52.

Some other planes we might see are the He-219, Fw-154, the Blohm & Voss Bv-222 seaplane and the Dornier Do-335.
I imagine the Germans will also finalize a four engine strategic bomber, the Me-264 most likely.

Germany was also at the fore front of helicopter development in WWII but due allied bombing raids on factories producing these aircraft and the pressing need for more fighters and Hitler's obsession with bombers, they were put on hold.
Here we could see the Flettner Fi-282 and the Focke Achgelis Fa-223 built in large numbers. There were more advanced helicopters on the drawing board but due to the war never made it to the testing stage.

 

[Tonrich]

So you think the TTL focus for the next generation would be more on advanced piston planes?



These are pertinent issues. On the whole, I've been assuming that both airframe and engine design remain more or less the same as OTL, because I don't want to inadvertently attribute unrealistically optimal designs. It is probably true, though, that the very large divergences which have occurred since 1933 in TTL would result in changes.

I think the rush in OT that had the jet fighters become operational now isn't there. Germany also isn't blockaded so they will be able to work through these issues before jet fighters become operational. For the Russian campaign there will not be a pressing need for jet fighters. Totally agree with cortez#9 on his above post about types of planes the Luftwaffe would be fielding at this point.

 

[Gudestein]

I tend to disagree with a bit if this. With the traditional RLM infights abolished ITTL, wouldn't Heinkel ger support for his simpler jet fighter in 1939 and you might see them operational in 1941-2?
In Numbers from 1942-3?

 

[cortz#9]

I tend to disagree with a bit if this. With the traditional RLM infights abolished ITTL, wouldn't Heinkel ger support for his simpler jet fighter in 1939 and you might see them operational in 1941-2?
In Numbers from 1942-3?

I think ITTL Messerschmidt and Heinkel would both get funding for their designs and the Heinkel (He-280) design would probably get developed further than it did in OTL but ITTL Messerschmidt isn't working on improving the Me-109 line, so both designers could be putting a lot more of their time and resources into developing their jet plane designs.

I think it might be plausible that ITTL the Me-262 (because it has better range than the He-280) would end up being developed into a reconnaissance plane and the He-280 possibly as a ground attack aircraft because its wider and non swept wings would allow for better ordnance of weapons to be carried.
But I could be wrong on all counts here but the point I'm trying to make is that Germany has time and resources to develop the jet to its full potential.
I could see Messerschmidt, Heinkel, Arado and Junkers all fielding jet aircraft around the same time (44-45?) but I'm thinking now that a jet powered reconnaissance plane would most likely be the first type of jet plane to go into service and perhaps as early as 1943.

 

[CrimsonKing]

Yeah unless the Germans find themselves at war with Britain again or the US, I don't see them rushing the development of jet aircraft but when they do introduce them, they will be much more reliable and deadly than the OTL German jets.
I think in this timeline we would see the Me-410 (and I think it would be a better plane than it was in OTL and do well in Russia)and Focke Wulf Fw-190D (long nose) enter service and we would see replacements for the He-111 and Junkers Ju-52.

Some other planes we might see are the He-219, Fw-154, the Blohm & Voss Bv-222 seaplane and the Dornier Do-335.
I imagine the Germans will also finalize a four engine strategic bomber, the Me-264 most likely.

Germany was also at the fore front of helicopter development in WWII but due allied bombing raids on factories producing these aircraft and the pressing need for more fighters and Hitler's obsession with bombers, they were put on hold.
Here we could see the Flettner Fi-282 and the Focke Achgelis Fa-223 built in large numbers. There were more advanced helicopters on the drawing board but due to the war never made it to the testing stage.

I think the rush in OT that had the jet fighters become operational now isn't there. Germany also isn't blockaded so they will be able to work through these issues before jet fighters become operational. For the Russian campaign there will not be a pressing need for jet fighters. Totally agree with cortez#9 on his above post about types of planes the Luftwaffe would be fielding at this point.

I tend to disagree with a bit if this. With the traditional RLM infights abolished ITTL, wouldn't Heinkel ger support for his simpler jet fighter in 1939 and you might see them operational in 1941-2?
In Numbers from 1942-3?

I think ITTL Messerschmidt and Heinkel would both get funding for their designs and the Heinkel (He-280) design would probably get developed further than it did in OTL but ITTL Messerschmidt isn't working on improving the Me-109 line, so both designers could be putting a lot more of their time and resources into developing their jet plane designs.

I think it might be plausible that ITTL the Me-262 (because it has better range than the He-280) would end up being developed into a reconnaissance plane and the He-280 possibly as a ground attack aircraft because its wider and non swept wings would allow for better ordnance of weapons to be carried.
But I could be wrong on all counts here but the point I'm trying to make is that Germany has time and resources to develop the jet to its full potential.
I could see Messerschmidt, Heinkel, Arado and Junkers all fielding jet aircraft around the same time (44-45?) but I'm thinking now that a jet powered reconnaissance plane would most likely be the first type of jet plane to go into service and perhaps as early as 1943.

I have edited the update with the following paragraph, "This was also the area in which the most eagerly anticipated plane of the next generation was being developed, the Do 335 Pfeil ("Arrow") heavy fighter. Envisioned as the successor to the Fw 187 and developed in great secrecy, it featured its two engines in a "push-pull" configuration, one at the front and the other at the rear of the plane, giving it a top speed a hundred miles per hour faster than its competitors while mounting an armament of three cannons. Such an aircraft, while expensive enough that it could never constitute the bulk of the fighter arm, could be used as a trump card to gain control of particularly important areas of airspace. When introduced in late 1943 or early 1944, Wever predicted that it "might possess an even greater superiority than the 190 did when it was first taken into service." The Me 262, a jet-powered reconnaissance plane, was also hoped to be ready during the same period." I hope the 1943-44 timeframe is plausible enough given the improvements in the LW development process in TTL and high priority being given to the Do 335.

Regarding the night fighters, I think they would be another area which would be deemphasized compared to OTL due to the lack of an air war in the west. There would be a night fighter variant of the Fw 187 of course. For the Me 410, while it is quite a serviceable aircraft, as I see it, the ground attack role is filled ITTL by the Hs 129 (with proper engines of course) and the value given to standardization means the LW likes to choose single aircraft for various roles. For strategic bombers, I'm still thinking over whether there will be a successor to the He 177, which, having been developed in a non-bungled manner in TTL is a very potent aircraft, or if there will be a continued concentration on the 177 in a way similar to how the US ended up using the B17 and B24 in Europe without the B29. Helicopters will be covered in the next update.

 

[cortz#9]

I agree that the need for nightfighters wouldn't be high priority ITTL, however once the Germans invade Russia they will encounter light and even bi-plane bombers that do night time harassment strikes against German positions. IOTL the Germans never really found a counter these simple raids except tot to provide more flak units.
It would be interesting if the Germans came up with a solution to these night time raiders in this TL, maybe Henschel Hs-123 could be used to do low level night time patrols over likely targets.

For strategic bombers I could see Heinkel continuing to further develop the He-177 or build a new bomber with the lessons learned from the He-177. Messerschmidt could also still develop the Me-264 as well.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Just a comment.

The 'Long nose' of Fw 190 (Also the later machine Ta 152) with an actual, working, has the bugs out because politics isn't changing the goal posts during engine design powered by a 20000 Hp Jumo 222 engine would also be as 'Thoroughbred' as the British engined/American built A 36 Apache. ... Um, *Cough*, oh yes 'P-51' Mustang.

 

[cortz#9]

At work.

Just a comment.

The 'Long nose' of Fw 190 (Also the later machine Ta 152) with an actual, working, has the bugs out because politics isn't changing the goal posts during engine design powered by a 20000 Hp Jumo 222 engine would also be as 'Thoroughbred' as the British engined A 36 Apache. ... Um, *Cough*, oh yes 'P-51' Mustang.

Yeah I could see that happening here ITTL.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Actually. ... that's a thing. Have relations between the Brits and Yanks been such that they are all peachy 'Tech sharing' as it were?

Looking at some aspects of the history. The Americans never did seem all that too crash hot that one of the preeminent airframes built by them was powered to victory by a British heart.

Then there's the Brit Firefly. Good gun in a good hull. Yank high ups forbade mass conversion/production. Hence only what? One in five or six Brit Shermans were 'Lancers'?

If such machines don't develop on the Allies side? Since the events have changed enough?

Just some more musings.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

Just a little something I remember stumbling across on the net.

http://roen911.deviantart.com/art/Focke-Wulf-Fw-230-Erla-413435468

Spoiler

"Here we see Oberst-Lieutenant Hans Straader in his personal mount '9.5'.

A modified Ta 152 actually comprised of his initial machine which had received serious wing damage in action over the Eastern provinces but he managed to nurse the stricken plane back to an air field.

While the plane was taken off the records, Straader didn't quite want to part with the machine which had managed to stay in the air long enough to let him reach safety so he used his rank/authority to have the plane 'stored' and shipped back to his home airfield.

While Straader was recuperating, he found his skills had brought him to the attention of the Technical dept and he'd been transferred to a research post.

Initially fearing the base would be a desk job and nothing but administration he soon found that his skills as a pilot were indeed needed as a 'Chase plane' aviator.

It was when Straader managed to have his beloved mount shipped to his new base that he came across an interesting discovery.

Some of the early testing for the metamorphosis of Fw into Ta had also been done at the base and that there were a couple of air frames, engines and other various parts to be found.

What resulted was something looked bizarre but had it's history in the He-111z Gigant glider tug.

The resultant machine dubbed 'Nine and a Half' soon showed it had the endurance to maintain long protective over flights above the base as well as that it's central, short 'stub wing' was adaptable enough that the machine was soon being used as a weapon's test platform in its own right.

The image here is of Straader watching over the initial flight phase of Professor Lippisch trans-sonic and super-sonic experimental air frame.

Very sorry for taking up space! Couldn't resist.

 

[cortz#9]

^ Cool Pic. I don't think we'd see the P.13 (plane in the background) ITTL, it a point defense fighter to be used against the day time strategic bomber offensive and there's no need for that here but I do believe Alexander Lippisch would be receiving funds for his research into delta winged aircraft.
The twin-fuselage Focke Wulf is an interesting design, both the Allies and the Axis experimented with twin-fuselage aircraft for extended range.

If the Germans launch a strategic bombing campaign against the Soviets, a plane like the twin-fuselage Fw-190 shown here would be a good long range escort fighter. I'm not sure how good the maneuverability would be though.

 

[Gudestein]

I have edited the update with the following paragraph, "This was also the area in which the most eagerly anticipated plane of the next generation was being developed, the Do 335 Pfeil ("Arrow") heavy fighter. Envisioned as the successor to the Fw 187 and developed in great secrecy, it featured its two engines in a "push-pull" configuration, one at the front and the other at the rear of the plane, giving it a top speed a hundred miles per hour faster than its competitors while mounting an armament of three cannons. Such an aircraft, while expensive enough that it could never constitute the bulk of the fighter arm, could be used as a trump card to gain control of particularly important areas of airspace. When introduced in late 1943 or early 1944, Wever predicted that it "might possess an even greater superiority than the 190 did when it was first taken into service." The Me 262, a jet-powered reconnaissance plane, was also hoped to be ready during the same period." I hope the 1943-44 timeframe is plausible enough given the improvements in the LW development process in TTL and high priority being given to the Do 335.

Regarding the night fighters, I think they would be another area which would be deemphasized compared to OTL due to the lack of an air war in the west. There would be a night fighter variant of the Fw 187 of course. For the Me 410, while it is quite a serviceable aircraft, as I see it, the ground attack role is filled ITTL by the Hs 129 (with proper engines of course) and the value given to standardization means the LW likes to choose single aircraft for various roles. For strategic bombers, I'm still thinking over whether there will be a successor to the He 177, which, having been developed in a non-bungled manner in TTL is a very potent aircraft, or if there will be a continued concentration on the 177 in a way similar to how the US ended up using the B17 and B24 in Europe without the B29. Helicopters will be covered in the next update.

I like this section, however without direct interference from Udet,the He-177 is going straight to the He-177B. Even if you dont like it that is a very much superior aircraft and very easy to evolve into he274 or he277.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

Actually, while it is some what similar in flight profile like the Me 163, in all its performance is better than the other machine. Plus, no expensive equipment other than the starter rocket and weapons. The 'Testing' being being made out of wood and metal/steel etc. The Lippisch machine had stats like this:

So... while the above is certainly acceptable for 'Experimental' purposes to explore Mach 2 flight envelopes... the later version with undercarriage and a better fuel loading system would probably be in development when the performance of a Mach 2 capable machine is demonstrated.

Again, sorry for adding too much into the thread. Please let me know if doing such is poor form.

Cheers.

 

[cortz#9]

Actually, while it is some what similar in flight profile like the Me 163, in all its performance is better than the other machine. Plus, no expensive equipment other than the starter rocket and weapons. The 'Testing' being being made out of wood and metal/steel etc. The Lippisch machine had stats like this:







So... while the above is certainly acceptable for 'Experimental' purposes to explore Mach 2 flight envelopes... the later version with undercarriage and a better fuel loading system would probably be in development when the performance of a Mach 2 capable machine is demonstrated.

Again, sorry for adding too much into the thread. Please let me know if doing such is poor form.

Cheers.

I personally love the pics and the stats you've posted here.
I'm not sure how things might play out here as far as rocket powered and scram jet engines for aircraft are concerned, Wagner seems to have a good head for the importance of evolving technology but he won't invest Reich resources on every advanced high tech project that comes along either.
He didn't put the V-2 into mass production for instance, in OTL Hitler had to be convinced of every single military innovation that Germany came up with. Hitler was strongly opposed at first with the following weapon systems:
Me-262 jet fighter, V-2 rocket, STG-44 assault rifle and many other innovative technological systems that Germany was at the forefront of.

Will Wagner be any different? He seems more practical than Hitler was but then Hitler was in the end convinced of the possibilities of the posted weapon systems.
The rocket fighter was developed in Germany because the Luftwaffe high command saw the possibilities of a point defense fighter to protect cities and industrial centers from enemy bombers but here that threat doesn't exist. However if Germany goes big with the "jet", the higher ups might see the advantages with experimenting with even more advanced concept than jets.

Just my two cents.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

*Nods* Thank'e.

Was just pointing out that Lippisch work has the potential to deliver a machine capable and controllable into flight regimes leaps and bounds over contemporaries.

Pretty sure it was Lippisch work went into the French Lorraine mixed ram+jet prototypes after the war Real Time.

It was Lippisch work which gave the Me 163 its shape. The rocket engine and its fuel supply were the bottle neck.

I have the concept illustrations for the piston conversion for the Me 163.

Cheers.

 

[cortz#9]

At work.

*Nods* Thank'e.

Was just pointing out that Lippisch work has the potential to deliver a machine capable and controllable into flight regimes leaps and bounds over contemporaries.

Pretty sure it was Lippisch work went into the French Lorraine mixed ram+jet prototypes after the war Real Time.

It was Lippisch work which gave the Me 163 its shape. The rocket engine and its fuel supply were the bottle neck.

I have the concept illustrations for the piston conversion for the Me 163.

Cheers.

Lippisch was a true innovator and I can see him taking his work farther here than he did in OTL. Germany here could introduce delta winged aircraft much earlier than was the case in OTL.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Actuall the French designer Payen (PA 22 will give a wiki link/image) was also well advanced with delta research. I have images of the design he tried to interest the Germans in after capitulation.

Again, very sorry if speculative stuff should not go here.