So, similar to an infantry assault gun? Not with the standard armored divisions

Correct.

@CrimsonKing

Is it just me, or does the Third Reich's leadership more than just resemble a triumvirate with Wagner as 'first among equals' with Blomberg and Heydrich?

This is a valid point. Certainly, the Wagner of this TL does exercise caution and thinks thing through to a greater extent than what a dictator normally accomplishes alone.

Also true. It goes back to both his willingness to delegate and the fact that the other two were essential for him in securing his position in 1933 after Hitler's death.
 
Another well written and very interesting update. Can't wait to see what the next one brings. So Stalin won't be caught by surprise in TTL. That likely means that Germany and its allies will be bled white against the greatly superior numbers of the Red Army. Especially since they have had more time to gain combat experience and recover from the Purge and the weaknesses so far discovered.

I see Wagner and Blomberg having plans for both sides potentially starting the conflict. One major difference I see happening in this timeline is, hopefully, Japan attacking from Manchuria and tying up the Far East Army and drawing Stalin into a 2 front war. If they can threaten the Caucuses, even if they don't attack they can tie up some of the USSR's more experienced troops at least at the outset. With the better inter-Axis cooperation Barbarossa will likely be larger than OTL, with appropriate winter gear and supply trains. Gaining the support of peoples like Ukrainians will likely be a priority, turning native Russians against the Soviet government. Considering the support the Nazis got in OTL I imagine that will be even more effective this time around. The lack of Lend-Lease from the US will also be a point against Stalin here I would imagine.

One area I see the Nazis having an edge is in weapons. One I see having use in both attack and defense is the Taifun, since it fits Wagner's mindset, being simple, easy to mass produce and requiring little resources per weapon to manufacture. They were designed to be fired from modified 88mm gun mounts which the Germans already had. This could help greatly since 40% of the Red Bomber force won't be destroyed on the ground the first day this time. Also the Henschel Hs 117 Schmetterling, which was submitted in 1941 in OTL but rejected because the German High Command saw no need for more anti-air weaponry. Wagner, who sees the long game, I can see realizing the advantages rockets like these could give against the Soviets.
 
Another well written and very interesting update. Can't wait to see what the next one brings. So Stalin won't be caught by surprise in TTL. That likely means that Germany and its allies will be bled white against the greatly superior numbers of the Red Army. Especially since they have had more time to gain combat experience and recover from the Purge and the weaknesses so far discovered.

I see Wagner and Blomberg having plans for both sides potentially starting the conflict. One major difference I see happening in this timeline is, hopefully, Japan attacking from Manchuria and tying up the Far East Army and drawing Stalin into a 2 front war. If they can threaten the Caucuses, even if they don't attack they can tie up some of the USSR's more experienced troops at least at the outset. With the better inter-Axis cooperation Barbarossa will likely be larger than OTL, with appropriate winter gear and supply trains. Gaining the support of peoples like Ukrainians will likely be a priority, turning native Russians against the Soviet government. Considering the support the Nazis got in OTL I imagine that will be even more effective this time around. The lack of Lend-Lease from the US will also be a point against Stalin here I would imagine.

One area I see the Nazis having an edge is in weapons. One I see having use in both attack and defense is the Taifun, since it fits Wagner's mindset, being simple, easy to mass produce and requiring little resources per weapon to manufacture. They were designed to be fired from modified 88mm gun mounts which the Germans already had. This could help greatly since 40% of the Red Bomber force won't be destroyed on the ground the first day this time. Also the Henschel Hs 117 Schmetterling, which was submitted in 1941 in OTL but rejected because the German High Command saw no need for more anti-air weaponry. Wagner, who sees the long game, I can see realizing the advantages rockets like these could give against the Soviets.

This is an interesting analysis and all of the topics raised will of course be covered, but (I realize this is getting repetitive) I'm afraid spoilers make it inadvisable for me to comment in greater detail.
 
Thinking things over, an idea occurred to me, which I want to ask readers' opinion of. Switzerland was mentioned earlier, and my initial reply was that the Axis would leave it neutral. Another issue raised has been remaining Spanish claims against southern France. Would it work to have Franco's aims be met and as compensation for France a three-way partition of Switzerland between Germany, Italy, and France similar to the partition of Belgium?
 
Thinking things over, an idea occurred to me, which I want to ask readers' opinion of. Switzerland was mentioned earlier, and my initial reply was that the Axis would leave it neutral. Another issue raised has been remaining Spanish claims against southern France. Would it work to have Franco's aims be met and as compensation for France a three-way partition of Switzerland between Germany, Italy, and France similar to the partition of Belgium?
Franco wants Morocco and part of Algeria, but not Pyrenees, correct? Partitioning Belgium is doable, since its already occupied, while Switzerland is neutral and largely cooperative country. So partitioning it would probably mean fighting new war. It might end up a walkover, but still a waste of resources quite unlike the established Wagner personality.
 
I support the idea that Spain obtains Roussillon (also known as French Catalonia) and the French Basque Country -these territorial claims are based on the fact that these territories are culturally part of Catalonia and the Basque Country, and Falangists consider that any Catalan and Basque territory is Spanish territory; in addition, those territories beyond Pyrenees would give any warning before an enemy invasion by the Pyrenees-, but I very much doubt the desirability of Wagner accepting the disintegration of Switzerland to please France for the loss of two small European territories. After all, Switzerland is the perfect tax haven for great European black market will exist during these years of war and political turmoil, and could be a perfect safe haven if German total war against the Soviet Union goes badly and Britain (with US assistance) seizes the mess in the east to attack Germany and regain military dominance over Western Europe.

By the way, will we soon see the general election in Britain? After all, the last British general elections before WW2 were held in 1935 and were to have been held in 1940, but were not held until the OTL final German defeat.
 
Invading Switzerland would be pointless and gruelling. Not in character with Wagner. Also I think Franco is well satisfied with Spain's border with the Pyrennes and gaining Andorra. He has to rebuild Spain from the damage of the Civil War and the war against Britain now.
 
Franco wants Morocco and part of Algeria, but not Pyrenees, correct? Partitioning Belgium is doable, since its already occupied, while Switzerland is neutral and largely cooperative country. So partitioning it would probably mean fighting new war. It might end up a walkover, but still a waste of resources quite unlike the established Wagner personality.

I agree with Mackus, it would be more trouble than its worth.

I support the idea that Spain obtains Roussillon (also known as French Catalonia) and the French Basque Country -these territorial claims are based on the fact that these territories are culturally part of Catalonia and the Basque Country, and Falangists consider that any Catalan and Basque territory is Spanish territory; in addition, those territories beyond Pyrenees would give any warning before an enemy invasion by the Pyrenees-, but I very much doubt the desirability of Wagner accepting the disintegration of Switzerland to please France for the loss of two small European territories. After all, Switzerland is the perfect tax haven for great European black market will exist during these years of war and political turmoil, and could be a perfect safe haven if German total war against the Soviet Union goes badly and Britain (with US assistance) seizes the mess in the east to attack Germany and regain military dominance over Western Europe.

By the way, will we soon see the general election in Britain? After all, the last British general elections before WW2 were held in 1935 and were to have been held in 1940, but were not held until the OTL final German defeat.

Invading Switzerland would be pointless and gruelling. Not in character with Wagner. Also I think Franco is well satisfied with Spain's border with the Pyrennes and gaining Andorra. He has to rebuild Spain from the damage of the Civil War and the war against Britain now.

Very well, Switzerland is to be left as is. I will further think over the Spanish claims.

There will be a British election in the near future.

Hello Brothers
Do you think that,with the new goverment,we can havr jets earlier?

Possibly, but they are still quite some time away in either case.
 
Alert to readers,

In the section which covered prewar German weapons development it is stated that Germany's nuclear program was advancing steadily without hampering research and development in other areas by scrapping the V2 rocket. Recently I have discovered that while the overall estimate is correct (the V2 actually cost 50% more than the Manhattan Project) my estimation of the timing was off. The V2 was apparently only given a high priority in 1942 as a result of Hitler wanting a weapon by which to strike back at the Wallies in the context of countering the Anglo-American bombing effort. To take this new information into account, the revised timeline of TTL's German atomic program will be preliminary research up until 1942 and an acceleration in that year following the victory in the west.

The next update will be out this weekend.
 
Sounds good, although the cost for the Manhattan Project wasn't just dollars, as I understand it, but electrical capacity as well - what's sacrificed to make up for that, or is V2 sufficient again?
 
Apart from armored and motorized forces, the Germans really need to help the Japanese shore up their logistics, and perhaps at sea, damage control. They were HORRID at both in OTL. There's precedent ITTL so it shouldn't be too difficult: the IJN did get advanced radar from the Germans in exchange for oxygen torpedoes IIRC.

If possible their pilot training programs and industry too: the former's not too difficult, no doubt IGHQ - what with better inter-Axis cooperation and communication - will have the details and be awed by the scale of the Luftwaffe and extended Axis air operations in Europe and North Africa. They'll want to get that level of achievement too, Imperial Japan being what it is, i.e. carbon-copying western powers. And of course, the IJN will probably follow suit if only to not get outpaced by the IJA. Hopefully the losses from the war with Britain will get the IJN to use fighters and bombers that won't catch fire from what should have been a glancing hit. The Zero was lethal in a skilled pilot's hands, but in a long war skilled pilots are a luxury. What they need is a fighter (and other aircraft) that can be useful even in an average pilot's care.
 
Last edited:
There was a serious loss of institutional knowledge in the German navy between the wars, as I understand it - do they have much to teach the Japanese about naval logistics or damage control? They certainly never had to attempt anything naval on the scale of what Japan is doing at the moment, ITTL or IOTL.
 
There was a serious loss of institutional knowledge in the German navy between the wars, as I understand it - do they have much to teach the Japanese about naval logistics or damage control? They certainly never had to attempt anything naval on the scale of what Japan is doing at the moment, ITTL or IOTL.

I meant logistics in general. IJA logistics were hardly better than the IJN's was. Also, Germany made use of convoys IIRC, running ships from Scandinavia to Germany. It's not much, but it's a good step in the right direction compared to the IJN just sending merchant ships unescorted through waters prowled by enemy submarines. Even more so if the Germans give the Japanese better sonar and stuff like that. Same for damage control: IJN damage control was ABYSSMAL. The Germans might have lost lots of knowledge and experience during the inter-war years, but AFAIK they didn't effectively ignore the concept like the IJN did. And they have experience from the recent war, for instance didn't Moltke and Roon take significant damage during their run into the Atlantic? A couple of steps in the right direction would help considerably.

EDIT: the Germans do have some experience in oceanic logistics, they did resupply submarine flotillas at sea. Good point though, as I'm not sure if there's anything the IJN could learn from that. Apart from what I've written above that is.
 
Last edited:
Alert to readers,

In the section which covered prewar German weapons development it is stated that Germany's nuclear program was advancing steadily without hampering research and development in other areas by scrapping the V2 rocket. Recently I have discovered that while the overall estimate is correct (the V2 actually cost 50% more than the Manhattan Project) my estimation of the timing was off. The V2 was apparently only given a high priority in 1942 as a result of Hitler wanting a weapon by which to strike back at the Wallies in the context of countering the Anglo-American bombing effort. To take this new information into account, the revised timeline of TTL's German atomic program will be preliminary research up until 1942 and an acceleration in that year following the victory in the west.

The next update will be out this weekend.

I think this is a god call, if for some other reasons though. IOTL the "splitting of the atom" gained considerable scientific notice which is not going to be butterflied and then in the US it quickly got an institutional backing and funding. However, in both cases that depended on obtaining calculations of the critical mass for a chain reaction. Before that happened nuclear weapons could easily be just a fantasy, and it does not appear very Wagner like to just go jumping after a fantasy with all resources available.

If not for this reason I think you have enough butterflies in place to allow some leaniency on the exact ressource allocation. The OTL start new Things, cancel them again, restart them was a not a productive way of handling the long-term Projects so you could imagine some better efficiency also in this area.

Anyways, I think we arrived at the right conclusion.

Good Work and I hope you find the time to keep the updates coming.
 
Sounds good, although the cost for the Manhattan Project wasn't just dollars, as I understand it, but electrical capacity as well - what's sacrificed to make up for that, or is V2 sufficient again?

I'm still looking into this question.

Is Germany doing any kind of research in the field of rocketry?

As of right now, there's the V-1. Random Walk has also raised some intriguing options above, which I'm considering incorporating when the narrative next reaches weapons research.

Apart from armored and motorized forces, the Germans really need to help the Japanese shore up their logistics, and perhaps at sea, damage control. They were HORRID at both in OTL. There's precedent ITTL so it shouldn't be too difficult: the IJN did get advanced radar from the Germans in exchange for oxygen torpedoes IIRC.

If possible their pilot training programs and industry too: the former's not too difficult, no doubt IGHQ - what with better inter-Axis cooperation and communication - will have the details and be awed by the scale of the Luftwaffe and extended Axis air operations in Europe and North Africa. They'll want to get that level of achievement too, Imperial Japan being what it is, i.e. carbon-copying western powers. And of course, the IJN will probably follow suit if only to not get outpaced by the IJA. Hopefully the losses from the war with Britain will get the IJN to use fighters and bombers that won't catch fire from what should have been a glancing hit. The Zero was lethal in a skilled pilot's hands, but in a long war skilled pilots are a luxury. What they need is a fighter (and other aircraft) that can be useful even in an average pilot's care.

There was a serious loss of institutional knowledge in the German navy between the wars, as I understand it - do they have much to teach the Japanese about naval logistics or damage control? They certainly never had to attempt anything naval on the scale of what Japan is doing at the moment, ITTL or IOTL.

I meant logistics in general. IJA logistics were hardly better than the IJN's was. Also, Germany made use of convoys IIRC, running ships from Scandinavia to Germany. It's not much, but it's a good step in the right direction compared to the IJN just sending merchant ships unescorted through waters prowled by enemy submarines. Even more so if the Germans give the Japanese better sonar and stuff like that. Same for damage control: IJN damage control was ABYSSMAL. The Germans might have lost lots of knowledge and experience during the inter-war years, but AFAIK they didn't effectively ignore the concept like the IJN did. And they have experience from the recent war, for instance didn't Moltke and Roon take significant damage during their run into the Atlantic? A couple of steps in the right direction would help considerably.

EDIT: the Germans do have some experience in oceanic logistics, they did resupply submarine flotillas at sea. Good point though, as I'm not sure if there's anything the IJN could learn from that. Apart from what I've written above that is.

Moltke and Roon did take significant damage.

I can certainly see the Japanese wanting to acquire the necessary training and industry to be able to match the aerial operations conducted by the European Axis. With regard to logistics and damage control, though, while improving in those areas is clearly a very good idea, is their TTL experience so far really such as to make them feel they need to?

I think this is a god call, if for some other reasons though. IOTL the "splitting of the atom" gained considerable scientific notice which is not going to be butterflied and then in the US it quickly got an institutional backing and funding. However, in both cases that depended on obtaining calculations of the critical mass for a chain reaction. Before that happened nuclear weapons could easily be just a fantasy, and it does not appear very Wagner like to just go jumping after a fantasy with all resources available.

If not for this reason I think you have enough butterflies in place to allow some leaniency on the exact ressource allocation. The OTL start new Things, cancel them again, restart them was a not a productive way of handling the long-term Projects so you could imagine some better efficiency also in this area.

Anyways, I think we arrived at the right conclusion.

Good Work and I hope you find the time to keep the updates coming.

This is true, it's hard looking back from today's perspective to remember how much like a fantasy idea nuclear weapons might seem to someone who hasn't been shown they work.
 
Top