Wagner’s Germany: An Axis Victory TL

[Linense]

The chapter has been edited to mention Suner and fix the Ivory Coast typo.

Unfortunately, my map-making skills are nonexistent.

Thanks you very much for your clarifications, CrimsonKing.

However, I think you should name the Spanish foreign minister with the name of Ramon Serrano Suñer, because Serrano is his first/paternal surname (but is a fairly common surname in Spain) and Suñer is his second/maternal surname (and is a rare surname in Spain); recalls that in Spanish-speaking countries each person has two surnames.

On the other hand, if you are going to point him as the husband of the sister-in-law of General Franco, I also think you should also point to Galeazzo Ciano as the son-in-law of Mussolini and both incises should be placed between parentheses.

In addition, there is also the matter of the return of the Canary Islands to the Spanish sovereignty -which had been invaded by the British in retaliation for the Axis attack on Gibraltar-, the holding of self-determination referenda to be held after the end of the European War in several French-controlled territories -eg the Oran region and Andorra, as well as the fulfillment of Spanish imperialist longings in Roussillon and the French Basque Country and of the Italians imperialist longings with the regions of Corsica, Nice and Savoy (especially when Monaco, surrounded exclusively by the French region of Nice, has already been annexed by Italy)- and although the British have succeeded in avoiding the creation of a pro-Axis puppet state in Mesopotamia in the Treaty of Tehran, the Germans could force the French to grant independence to a Syria ruled by the SSNP.

And not forgetting the possibility that Petain managed to acquire for France the sovereignty over the Channel Islands.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

What about Malta? Did it stay with Italy?

 

[Cregan]

Thanks you very much for your clarifications, CrimsonKing.

However, I think you should name the Spanish foreign minister with the name of Ramon Serrano Suñer, because Serrano is his first/paternal surname (but is a fairly common surname in Spain) and Suñer is his second/maternal surname (and is a rare surname in Spain); recalls that in Spanish-speaking countries each person has two surnames.

On the other hand, if you are going to point him as the husband of the sister-in-law of General Franco, I also think you should also point to Galeazzo Ciano as the son-in-law of Mussolini and both incises should be placed between parentheses.

In addition, there is also the matter of the return of the Canary Islands to the Spanish sovereignty -which had been invaded by the British in retaliation for the Axis attack on Gibraltar-, the holding of self-determination referenda to be held after the end of the European War in several French-controlled territories -eg the Oran region and Andorra, as well as the fulfillment of Spanish imperialist longings in Roussillon and the French Basque Country and of the Italians imperialist longings with the regions of Corsica, Nice and Savoy (especially when Monaco, surrounded exclusively by the French region of Nice, has already been annexed by Italy)- and although the British have succeeded in avoiding the creation of a pro-Axis puppet state in Mesopotamia in the Treaty of Tehran, the Germans could force the French to grant independence to a Syria ruled by the SSNP.

And not forgetting the possibility that Petain managed to acquire for France the sovereignty over the Channel Islands.

Andorra, Oran, Mauritania and the Canary Islands yes, but why would Franco want more Basques in his country? They were a troublesome minority, and it will piss of the French. Same with Roussillon. Franco was inherently a conservative tyrant, he wouldn't go for these grandiose territorial ambitions at French expense, especially because it will alienate his new ally Petain and the Germans won't like that one bit.

Wagner seems to have taken an explicitly pro-colonialist line, what with all the colonial territorial gains made by his allies and no concessions to native nationalists, so again I don't see why he would want to piss of the French to grant Syria independence, when its pro-Axis under French colonial rule anyway.

If Wagner forces Petain to surrender Nice, Savoy and Corsica, that will again piss of the French for no good reason. Perhaps Nice and/or maybe Savoy, but not the only major French island in the Mediterranean. What does he have to gain in favoring Mussolini like this at the expense of Petain? He already gave the Italians all of Egypt, Sudan and Somalia, in addition to Malta and virtually a free hand in the Balkans. There is no reason to aggravate the French with more concessions out of integral areas of France to the Italians.

 

[Linense]

Andorra, Oran, Mauritania and the Canary Islands yes, but why would Franco want more Basques in his country? They were a troublesome minority, and it will piss of the French. Same with Roussillon. Franco was inherently a conservative tyrant, he wouldn't go for these grandiose territorial ambitions at French expense, especially because it will alienate his new ally Petain and the Germans won't like that one bit.

Wagner seems to have taken an explicitly pro-colonialist line, what with all the colonial territorial gains made by his allies and no concessions to native nationalists, so again I don't see why he would want to piss of the French to grant Syria independence, when its pro-Axis under French colonial rule anyway.

If Wagner forces Petain to surrender Nice, Savoy and Corsica, that will again piss of the French for no good reason. Perhaps Nice and/or maybe Savoy, but not the only major French island in the Mediterranean. What does he have to gain in favoring Mussolini like this at the expense of Petain? He already gave the Italians all of Egypt, Sudan and Somalia, in addition to Malta and virtually a free hand in the Balkans. There is no reason to aggravate the French with more concessions out of integral areas of France to the Italians.

Since Francoist perspective, the Basques and Catalans are Spanish. Therefore, any territory considered culturally linked to them should be Spanish territory. For example, until Spain became a French lackey, Spain always aspired to the recovery of Roussillon (the last serious attempt, apart from the expansionist ambitions of Franco during WW2, was during the Congress of Vienna, but then most territorial ambition shown by the inept Spanish ambassador sent by Fernando VII was the recovery of Louisiana and focused on it all his strength instead of achieving territories in Europe, and everyone knows what happened to this). Moreover, these two territories beyond the Pyrenees will be the first Spanish defense against any invasion from the other side of the Pyrenees.

It should also be keep in mind that France is the (ideologically) weakest member of the Axis and other members more loyal to the Axis seen with much suspicion towards Petain's France, especially because France hinders their (Italian and Spanish) own expansionist projects.

And if the Axis does not endorse any decolonizing movement in the Middle East, the British could take advantage of the great change occurred in the area to encourage the decolonization of the colonies controlled by members of the Axis. In addition, the Arab peoples always saw with good eyes to the Axis.

 

[Tonrich]

Politically, with a cautious wagner who still wants to live up to the Führers legacy, he has not yet provided the lebensraum.

I kind of disagree with your point here. There was no "legacy" for Wagner to live up to. I would assume Mein Kampft would never be as popular as it was, so many Germans (let alone other countries) wouldn't have read the book. Wagner was the star now. It has been his doing that has put Germany in the position they enjoy today. They have gotten massive "Lebensraum" with the territory the got from Poland. The majority of that area is good farmland and with the natural resources in the Upper Silesia area as the Germans improve the infrastructure in that area they should see huge improvements in their self-sufficiency.

At this point in world history I don't think many people would be thinking much about Hitler!

 

[Roland Traveler]

Italy's going to choke on those territories without German help. Their empire nearly doubled in size.

 

[Tonrich]

Italy's going to choke on those territories without German help. Their empire nearly doubled in size.

Oh I don't know about that. If the infrastructure and organization in Libia is so much better then IRL it might not be as difficult as you think (at least in Egypt). The French part of N. Africa should be relatively stabile. The horn of Africa might be the biggest challenge.

That being said there really wouldn't be any pressing reason for Italy to get embroiled in a conflict in the Balkans until they've consolidated their holdings in Africa.

 

[Linense]

There is also uncertainty about the fate of Jews in European countries allied with Wagner's Germany. Will Wagner encourage Jewish migration (forced or otherwise) to British Palestine to create a big mess in a British colony and ensure the loyalty of the Arab peoples, without staining directly the hands of Germany or the Axis?

 

[Gudestein]

I kind of disagree with your point here. There was no "legacy" for Wagner to live up to. I would assume Mein Kampft would never be as popular as it was, so many Germans (let alone other countries) wouldn't have read the book. Wagner was the star now. It has been his doing that has put Germany in the position they enjoy today. They have gotten massive "Lebensraum" with the territory the got from Poland. The majority of that area is good farmland and with the natural resources in the Upper Silesia area as the Germans improve the infrastructure in that area they should see huge improvements in their self-sufficiency.

At this point in world history I don't think many people would be thinking much about Hitler!

There is nothing objectively wrong with your statement and it all depends on the psychological profile of Wagner. As CrimsonKing described it earlier, he sees Hitler as his idol and want to carry out his legacy. That is quite clearly defined in Mein Kampf:
"And so, we National Socialists consciously draw a line beneath the foreign policy tendency of our pre–War period. We take up where we broke off six hundred years ago. We stop the endless German movement to the south and west, and turn our gaze toward the land in the East. At long last, we break off the colonial and commercial policy of the pre–War period and shift to the soil policy of the future.

If we speak of soil in Europe today, we can primarily have in mind only Russia and her vassal border states."

You are absolutely right that Wagner should have sufficient clout to be his own man by now. Question is what he feels his task is. He clearly still falls short of Hitler's ambitions with regards to the main priority.

Crimsonking, would you provide a little insight into how Wagner personally receives his quite impressive success and whether he thinks he has done enough? I guess only you can answer this as you almost made him up.

 

[Praetor98]

Let's see what Japan does now. Are they going to start tooling up to fight the Nationalists in an even longer war? And will they plan for a long war?

 

[CrimsonKing]

I can make the map for you, send me a inbox

PS I gonna use the darkest hour map as a base

Darkest hour is fine.

This was interesting. Everyone gets something - except Germany. Obviously not true, Germany dictates the new map of Europe.
Still, it seems the oil is in British/Stalins control, while the Japanese will have oil now.
Politically, with a cautious wagner who still wants to live up to the Führers legacy, he has not yet provided the lebensraum. SU must be faced. If Britain should reenter the war on the part of the SU things get tricky. Long way from dutch east indies to Germany.
Here is a prediction: Wagner reenters the war with Japan against SUwhen the Japanese have crushed Chiang-Kai Shek and the German oil situation improves for real (eg. Italian oil in Lybia, the Matzen oil field, synthetics etc.). Germany support Japanese armor developments in the mean time.

If Stalin has any cunning ITTL, he now moves heavily in support of Mao, otherwise he just watch the noose being tightened.

Many of these predictions are accurate, although spoilers regrettably prevent me from going into greater detail. German gains from the changed situation will be discussed soon.

Thanks you very much for your clarifications, CrimsonKing.

However, I think you should name the Spanish foreign minister with the name of Ramon Serrano Suñer, because Serrano is his first/paternal surname (but is a fairly common surname in Spain) and Suñer is his second/maternal surname (and is a rare surname in Spain); recalls that in Spanish-speaking countries each person has two surnames.

On the other hand, if you are going to point him as the husband of the sister-in-law of General Franco, I also think you should also point to Galeazzo Ciano as the son-in-law of Mussolini and both incises should be placed between parentheses.

In addition, there is also the matter of the return of the Canary Islands to the Spanish sovereignty -which had been invaded by the British in retaliation for the Axis attack on Gibraltar-, the holding of self-determination referenda to be held after the end of the European War in several French-controlled territories -eg the Oran region and Andorra, as well as the fulfillment of Spanish imperialist longings in Roussillon and the French Basque Country and of the Italians imperialist longings with the regions of Corsica, Nice and Savoy (especially when Monaco, surrounded exclusively by the French region of Nice, has already been annexed by Italy)- and although the British have succeeded in avoiding the creation of a pro-Axis puppet state in Mesopotamia in the Treaty of Tehran, the Germans could force the French to grant independence to a Syria ruled by the SSNP.

And not forgetting the possibility that Petain managed to acquire for France the sovereignty over the Channel Islands.

Andorra, Oran, Mauritania and the Canary Islands yes, but why would Franco want more Basques in his country? They were a troublesome minority, and it will piss of the French. Same with Roussillon. Franco was inherently a conservative tyrant, he wouldn't go for these grandiose territorial ambitions at French expense, especially because it will alienate his new ally Petain and the Germans won't like that one bit.

Wagner seems to have taken an explicitly pro-colonialist line, what with all the colonial territorial gains made by his allies and no concessions to native nationalists, so again I don't see why he would want to piss of the French to grant Syria independence, when its pro-Axis under French colonial rule anyway.

If Wagner forces Petain to surrender Nice, Savoy and Corsica, that will again piss of the French for no good reason. Perhaps Nice and/or maybe Savoy, but not the only major French island in the Mediterranean. What does he have to gain in favoring Mussolini like this at the expense of Petain? He already gave the Italians all of Egypt, Sudan and Somalia, in addition to Malta and virtually a free hand in the Balkans. There is no reason to aggravate the French with more concessions out of integral areas of France to the Italians.

Since Francoist perspective, the Basques and Catalans are Spanish. Therefore, any territory considered culturally linked to them should be Spanish territory. For example, until Spain became a French lackey, Spain always aspired to the recovery of Roussillon (the last serious attempt, apart from the expansionist ambitions of Franco during WW2, was during the Congress of Vienna, but then most territorial ambition shown by the inept Spanish ambassador sent by Fernando VII was the recovery of Louisiana and focused on it all his strength instead of achieving territories in Europe, and everyone knows what happened to this). Moreover, these two territories beyond the Pyrenees will be the first Spanish defense against any invasion from the other side of the Pyrenees.

It should also be keep in mind that France is the (ideologically) weakest member of the Axis and other members more loyal to the Axis seen with much suspicion towards Petain's France, especially because France hinders their (Italian and Spanish) own expansionist projects.

And if the Axis does not endorse any decolonizing movement in the Middle East, the British could take advantage of the great change occurred in the area to encourage the decolonization of the colonies controlled by members of the Axis. In addition, the Arab peoples always saw with good eyes to the Axis.

The points about the names and references to the foreign ministers have been incorporated.

The Canaries were of course returned to Spain. I have added an article specifying that all occupied territory not mentioned in the rest of the treaty reverts to its prior owner.

For the rest, I'll look into them, but in general it is safe to assume the pre-war border remains unchanged unless it has been stated otherwise.

What about Malta? Did it stay with Italy?

Yes. The text has been modified to clarify this.

Italy's going to choke on those territories without German help. Their empire nearly doubled in size.

Oh I don't know about that. If the infrastructure and organization in Libia is so much better then IRL it might not be as difficult as you think (at least in Egypt). The French part of N. Africa should be relatively stabile. The horn of Africa might be the biggest challenge.

That being said there really wouldn't be any pressing reason for Italy to get embroiled in a conflict in the Balkans until they've consolidated their holdings in Africa.

While it is probably true that Italy's empire is not in danger of immediate instability, it is also true that there are vulnerable points within it which could be exploited by a skillful adversary. Whether they actually will be is a question for the future.

There is also uncertainty about the fate of Jews in European countries allied with Wagner's Germany. Will Wagner encourage Jewish migration (forced or otherwise) to British Palestine to create a big mess in a British colony and ensure the loyalty of the Arab peoples, without staining directly the hands of Germany or the Axis?

That is one possible course of action. I can't say for sure at this point whether it will be taken.

I kind of disagree with your point here. There was no "legacy" for Wagner to live up to. I would assume Mein Kampft would never be as popular as it was, so many Germans (let alone other countries) wouldn't have read the book. Wagner was the star now. It has been his doing that has put Germany in the position they enjoy today. They have gotten massive "Lebensraum" with the territory the got from Poland. The majority of that area is good farmland and with the natural resources in the Upper Silesia area as the Germans improve the infrastructure in that area they should see huge improvements in their self-sufficiency.

At this point in world history I don't think many people would be thinking much about Hitler!

There is nothing objectively wrong with your statement and it all depends on the psychological profile of Wagner. As CrimsonKing described it earlier, he sees Hitler as his idol and want to carry out his legacy. That is quite clearly defined in Mein Kampf:
"And so, we National Socialists consciously draw a line beneath the foreign policy tendency of our pre–War period. We take up where we broke off six hundred years ago. We stop the endless German movement to the south and west, and turn our gaze toward the land in the East. At long last, we break off the colonial and commercial policy of the pre–War period and shift to the soil policy of the future.

If we speak of soil in Europe today, we can primarily have in mind only Russia and her vassal border states."

You are absolutely right that Wagner should have sufficient clout to be his own man by now. Question is what he feels his task is. He clearly still falls short of Hitler's ambitions with regards to the main priority.

Crimsonking, would you provide a little insight into how Wagner personally receives his quite impressive success and whether he thinks he has done enough? I guess only you can answer this as you almost made him up.

He still sees himself to a substantial extent as realizing the vision laid out by Hitler, but his considerable achievements have lessened this tendency compared to when he first assumed the leadership. This means that on the whole, realizing goals set by Hitler will still factor into his decision-making to a degree, but it will not be the only or even the main consideration in his deliberations.

Let's see what Japan does now. Are they going to start tooling up to fight the Nationalists in an even longer war? And will they plan for a long war?

The Japanese believe that with the cutoff of outside help the Nationalists will collapse. As such, while they probably will prepare plans for a long war, they don't expect one.

 

[Gudestein]

Just waiting for the new update, it Struck me that there is an important angle we have not covered.
A cautious Wagner may take his time, but what happens around Germany, and in particular the Manhattan project. Is it on track in the US? Did the Uranium fission discovery happen on time and the news spread as OTL?
ANd how is the German research on the subject going?
Just thinking when time runs out?

 

[skarosianlifeform]

At least Axis has uranium (from Belgian / French Congo).

I also suspect Wagner avoided the "Jewish science" mess, and did what he could to keep Jewish scientists in Germany. And if they left, didn't reject their theories and discoveries.

On the other hand, if the USA invite the UK into the Manhattan Project, it may move faster since both countries are neutral (so more money).

 

[Gudestein]

Well its actually a critically important unknown what knowledge transfer happens out of Germany, as well as what happens from UK to US. IOTL the British transferred what they had and there is not the Churchill/Roosevelt understanding to make it happen ITTL

 

[Keb]

At least Axis has uranium (from Belgian / French Congo).

Closer to home, actually. IIRC, there were deposits in northern Bohemia, a bit outside the Sudetenland borders.

 

[Jotun]

Closer to home, actually. IIRC, there were deposits in northern Bohemia, a bit outside the Sudetenland borders.

Even closer to home. Pitchblende in the Ore Mountains, around Aue.

 

[CrimsonKing]

Just waiting for the new update, it Struck me that there is an important angle we have not covered.
A cautious Wagner may take his time, but what happens around Germany, and in particular the Manhattan project. Is it on track in the US? Did the Uranium fission discovery happen on time and the news spread as OTL?
ANd how is the German research on the subject going?
Just thinking when time runs out?

At least Axis has uranium (from Belgian / French Congo).

I also suspect Wagner avoided the "Jewish science" mess, and did what he could to keep Jewish scientists in Germany. And if they left, didn't reject their theories and discoveries.

On the other hand, if the USA invite the UK into the Manhattan Project, it may move faster since both countries are neutral (so more money).

Well its actually a critically important unknown what knowledge transfer happens out of Germany, as well as what happens from UK to US. IOTL the British transferred what they had and there is not the Churchill/Roosevelt understanding to make it happen ITTL

Closer to home, actually. IIRC, there were deposits in northern Bohemia, a bit outside the Sudetenland borders.

Even closer to home. Pitchblende in the Ore Mountains, around Aue.

Regarding the update, I have unfortunately been very busy lately. I'll try to have something out within a week, but I can't make that a promise.

For the nuclear programs, the Manhattan project is proceeding as per OTL. The German program is making slow but steady progress as well, and could on the whole be said to be slightly behind the American one, but not by much. The addition of the uranium from the Congo to the others mentioned is indeed helpful.

 

[Gudestein]

Regarding the update, I have unfortunately been very busy lately. I'll try to have something out within a week, but I can't make that a promise.

For the nuclear programs, the Manhattan project is proceeding as per OTL. The German program is making slow but steady progress as well, and could on the whole be said to be slightly behind the American one, but not by much. The addition of the uranium from the Congo to the others mentioned is indeed helpful.

I am not sure this makes sense. What is the driver for the Tizard mission being on time ITTL?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizard_Mission

 

[skarosianlifeform]

Since Germany uses Congolese uranium, will France be involved in the project ?

And what about Italy ? And Spain ?

 

[Radigan]

Since Germany uses Congolese uranium, will France be involved in the project ?

And what about Italy ? And Spain ?

With a less overtly anti-semitic Germany, I would guess Mussolini wouldn't feel the pressure to pay lip service to them by instituting the racial laws in '38. This in turn could mean Enrico Fermi stayed in Italy - his absence would mean a decent delay in the Manhattan Project, and potentially accelerate an Axis nuclear program.