Wacky Alt. Progressive Reforms

Using California as an example of a system is a terrible idea since California is just screwed up generally.


Because I specifically referred to California's referendum system - that state's referendum system - I was only referring to the failings of that particular referendum system and in no way suggesting all referendum systems are flawed.

One way referendum systems fail is when people cannot comprehend what they read on the ballot and thus form an uninformed opinion.
 
Because I specifically referred to California's referendum system - that state's referendum system - I was only referring to the failings of that particular referendum system and in no way suggesting all referendum systems are flawed.

Honestly I don't think their is that much of a differene between them, apart from it requiring an actual Constitutional Majority to alter the state constitution(s).
 
Because I specifically referred to California's referendum system - that state's referendum system - I was only referring to the failings of that particular referendum system and in no way suggesting all referendum systems are flawed.

One way referendum systems fail is when people cannot comprehend what they read on the ballot and thus form an uninformed opinion.

It's all but impossible to form informed opinions about the initiatives-Three Strikes was sold to us as 3 violent felonies and even the opposition never mentioned (presumably didn't know) about the hidden flaw. A lot of Californians are beginning to regret the whole system, but it's pretty much impossible to remove:(.

We were limping along OK until the housing crash; obviously California wouldn't have done much better without the weakness of the system making the state almost ungovornable but it didn't help.
 
It's all but impossible to form informed opinions about the initiatives-Three Strikes was sold to us as 3 violent felonies and even the opposition never mentioned (presumably didn't know) about the hidden flaw. A lot of Californians are beginning to regret the whole system, but it's pretty much impossible to remove:(.
Maybe they can remove it with a referendum.:p
 
(Bump, Filler, Dennis Miller)

Banning the filibuster:

While the filibuster has become rather key in making sure...well...nothing gets done, in the age of the super strong parties it was more just a nuisance. Party members could afford to spend hours or days listening to someone droll on and try to hold up progress because they were generally secure in their areas and the parties would help them get reelected, so it wasn't really all too effective.
 
Had an idea

Department of Industiral-Labor Relations/Keeping jobs from being taken over by machines:
In the age of Progressivism, industrial jobs once done by manned labor were increasingly being taken over by machines. So a bit of a Luddite idea hit me: what if certain governments put into place a review board or something which review new mechanized innovations in the factory workplaces, and through regulation would ensure that the majority of jobs were done by humans.
 
The Progressive Era was a time of grand social reforms, which sought to improve either the human plight or change civilization itself. So what are some of the proposals which didn't make it into existence, or some things that could have been proposed?

A few of mine that come to mind:


  • Tests and licenses to have children to address fears of unfit parents.
  • Direct election of Supreme Court Justices.
  • Legal ban on Caffeine products (which was considered when things like Cocaine and Marijuana were banned; think of the fear-monger PSA's if that were banned)
  • Abolition of the Electoral college.
  • Abolition of the Presidency (which, for a time during the age when Congress ran like Parliament, was viewed as a possibility)

Didm't they also expiriment with euginics?
 
Didm't they also expiriment with euginics?
Yes. Albeit I'm not sure if that's strictly Progressive as it seemed a popular idea through the age with others. It also, unfortunately, mixed with Scientific Racism in certain instances (that's what happens when you have something that seeks to improve the human being as an animal, without understanding for what the peek form of that would really be because you think it's pale white and Western European).
 
How about getting rid of that crazy electoral college? Or maybe instead of districts just have be all Representatives be statewide, that way you don't gotta deal with gerrymandering.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Ideas that the Progressives were higly committed to included referendums-initiative-recall, popular control over judicial decisions, if not the judges themselves, amelioration of living conditions for the lower classes through social security, labor standards, and health care legislation, anti-trust with teeth, progressive inheritance/income taxation, environmental conservation, and easier constitutional amendments.

The 1912 Progressive Party platform seems a quite useful source to reckon the kind of reforms they would pass if they are more successful:

(...)
In particular, the party declares for direct primaries for nomination of State and National officers, for Nation-wide preferential primaries for candidates for the Presidency, for the direct election of United States Senators by the people; and we urge on the States the policy of the short ballot, with responsibility to the people secured by the initiative, referendum and recall.

(...)
The Progressive Party (...) pledges itself to provide a more easy and expeditious method of amending the Federal Constitution.

(...)
Effective legislation looking to the prevention of industrial accidents, occupational diseases, overwork, involuntary unemployment, and other injurious effects incident to modern industry;
The fixing of minimum safety and health standards for the various occupations, and the exercise of the public authority of State and Nation, including the Federal control over inter-State commerce and the taxing power, to maintain such standards;
The prohibition of child labor;
Minimum wage standards for working women, to provide a living scale in all industrial occupations;
The prohibition of night work for women and the establishment of an eight hour day for women and young persons;
One day's rest in seven for all wage-workers;
(...)
Publicity as to wages, hours and conditions and labor; full reports upon industrial accidents and diseases, and the opening to public inspection of all tallies, weights, measures and check systems on labor products;
Standards of compensation for death by industrial accident and injury and trade diseases which will transfer the burden of lost earnings from the families of working people to the industry, and thus to the community;
The protection of home life against the hazards of sickness, irregular employment and old age through the adoption of a system of social insurance adapted to American use;
The development of the creative labor power of America by lifting the last load of illiteracy from American youth and establishing continuation schools for industrial education under public control and encouraging agricultural education and demonstration in rural schools;
The establishment of industrial research laboratories to put the methods and discoveries of science at the service of American producers.
We favor the organization of the workers, men and women as a means of protecting their interests and of promoting their progress.

(...)
we urge the establishment of a strong Federal administrative commission of high standing, which shall maintain permanent active supervision over industrial corporations engaged in inter-State commerce, or such of them as are of public importance, doing for them what the Government now does for the National banks, and what is now done for the railroads by the Inter-State Commerce Commission.
Such a commission must enforce the complete publicity of those corporation transactions which are of public interest; must attack unfair competition, false capitalization and special privilege, and by continuous trained watchfulness guard and keep open equally to all the highways of American commerce.
(...)
We favor strengthening the Sherman law by prohibiting agreements to divide territory or limit output; refusing to sell to customers who buy from business rivals; to sell below cost in certain areas while maintaining higher prices in other places; using the power of transportation to aid or injure special business concerns; and other unfair trade practices.

(...)
We believe that the remaining forests, coal and oil lands, water powers and other natural resources still in State or National control (except agricultural lands) are more likely to be wisely conserved and utilized for the general welfare if held in the public hands.
In order that consumers and producers, managers and workmen, now and hereafter, need not pay toll to private monopolies of power and raw material, we demand that such resources shall be retained by the State of Nation and opened to immediate use under laws which will encourage development and make to the people a moderate return for benefits conferred.

(...)
It is a National obligation to develop our rivers, and especially the Mississippi and its tributaries, without delay, under a comprehensive general plan covering each river system from its source to its mouth, designed to secure its highest usefulness for navigation, irrigation, domestic supply, water power and the prevention of floods.
We pledge our party to the immediate preparation of such a plan, which should be made and carried out in close and friendly co-operation between the Nation, the States and the cities affected.

(...)
The Progressive Party, believing that no people can justly claim to be a true democracy which denies political rights on account of sex, pledges itself to the task of securing equal suffrage to men and women alike.

(...)
We pledge our party to legislation that will compel strict limitation on all campaign contributions and expenditures, and detailed publicity of both before as well as after primaries and elections.

(...)
We pledge our party to legislation compelling the registration of lobbyists; publicity of committee hearings except on foreign affairs, and recording of all votes in committee; and forbidding Federal appointees from holding office in State of National political organizations, or taking part as officers or delegates in political conventions for the nomination of elective State or National officials.

(...)
1. That when an act, passed under the police power of the State, is held unconstitutional under the State Constitution, by the courts, the people, after an ample interval for deliberation, shall have opportunity to vote on the question whether they desire the act to become a law, notwithstanding such decision.
2. That every decision of the highest appellate court of a State declaring an act of the Legislature unconstitutional on the ground of its violation of the Federal Constitution shall be subject to the same review by the Supreme Court of the United States as is now accorded to decisions sustaining such legislation.

(...)
We pledge our party to establish a Department of Labor with a seat in the cabinet, and with wide jurisdiction over matters affecting the conditions of labor and living.

(...)
We pledge out party to foster the development of agricultural credit and co-operation, the teaching of agriculture in schools, agricultural college extension, the use of mechanical power on the farm, and to re-establish the Country Life Commission, thus directly promoting the welfare of the farmers, and bringing the benefits of better farming, better business and better living within their reach.

(...)
We favor the union of all the existing agencies of the Federal Government dealing with the public health into a single National health service without discrimination against or for any one set of therapeutic methods, school of medicine, or school of healing with such additional powers as may be necessary to enable it to perform efficiently such duties in the protection of the public from preventable diseases as may be properly undertaken by the Federal authorities; including the executing of existing laws regarding pure food; quarantine and cognate subjects; the promotion of appropriate action for the improvement of vital statistics and the extension of the registration area of such statistics and co-operation with the health activities of the various States and cities of the Nation.

(...)
We pledge ourselves to the enactment of a patent law which will make it impossible for patents to be suppressed or used against the public welfare in the interests of injurious monopolies.

(...)
We believe in a graduated inheritance tax as a National means of equalizing the obligations of holder of property to government, and we hereby pledge our party to enact such a Federal law as will tax large inheritances returning to the States an equitable percentage of all amounts collected.
 
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Eurofed

Banned
So, from the source I have quoted, we may expect:

* Mandatory referendum, initative, and recall in all states, quite possibly even at the federal level.

* Easier constitutional amendment (reducing the ratification threshold to 2/3 of states ? State ratification by referendum ? National referendum ?)

* Early social security legislation, extensive labor safety and standards legislation, minimum wage and unemployment benefits. Quite possibly one or more constititional amendments to expand Congress' powers in those areas, on the model of the Child Labor amendment (which gets ratified ITTL).

* Much stronger anti-trust legislation.

* Extensive environmental conservation, quite possibly a constitutional amendment to give Congress more power to implement it.

* Earlier TVA-like agencies, in several regions of the country.

* Earlier suffrage for women.

* Regulation of lobbysts.

* I'm not sure about the legal device that they would use, but it seems fairly clear that in the Progressives' POV, the people, not the courts, ought to have the last word on what is and is not constitutional.

* Progressive income and inheritance tax system.

* Early national health service.

* Limitation of patent and copyright.

I'm not really aware of any particular reason why the Progressives should favor the Westminster system (if anything, that was a Wilsonian idea), on the contrary TR made them really in favor of a strong Presidency system, although to abolish the Electoral College seems something that really fits with their worldview.
 
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Teleology said:
A progressive era wank would not be a socialistic/progressive in the modern sense U.S., with greater redistribution of wealth, instead it would be quite an animal onto itself.

So, from the source I have quoted, we may expect...
* Early social security legislation, extensive labor safety and standards legislation, minimum wage and unemployment benefits....
* Progressive income and inheritance tax system...

Here's a question -- would something like Basic Income be possible under the Progressive Movement, or does that idea not even really enter the political discourse until economic populism becomes more mainstream?
 

Eurofed

Banned
I disagree about the concept that a Progressive wank would not see greater redistribution of wealth, from the source I quoted it appears that they supported progressive income & inheritance taxation and to use public funds and implement social security, health care, better education, and infrastructure development.

About Basic Income proper, I dunno. But they already strongly supported Mininum Wage, so it is possible that they could get to support the former, too, in the long term.
 
Abolition of the Senate, House has 4-year terms and are elected via AV?

Also, during this time about 80-90% of Americans voted so compulsory voting would be a no-brainer.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Abolition of the Senate, House has 4-year terms and are elected via AV?

I doubt they would go all the way as to abolish the Senate, but they were all in favor of popular election. They may or may not abolish the EC and implement AV for the House, but an anti-gerrymandering constitutional amendment seems quite possible.
 
Land Value Tax? Also, voting day is a national holiday along with compulsory voting.

I wonder how many of these would be ruled unconstitutional :D
 
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Abolition of the Senate, House has 4-year terms and are elected via AV?

Also, during this time about 80-90% of Americans voted so compulsory voting would be a no-brainer.

Considering the presence of "soap" during those times.... not going to end well for compulsory voting.....
 

Eurofed

Banned
Land Value Tax? Also, voting day is a national holiday along with compulsory voting.

Both are quite possible.

I wonder how many of these would b ruled unconstitutional :D

They would surely find ways to overrule or muzzle the SCOTUS if it starts to mess with their reforms. They had very little patience with the courts, which they saw as the hostile guardians of privilege more often than not, obstructing "popular will", and to limit their power was a major part of their program. FDR's 'Court-Packing' scheme is only the beginning of what they could do, they could also limit judges' tenure, subject them to recall, or allow SCOTUS overrule by Congress supermajority or national referendum.
 
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Both are quite possible.



They would surely find ways to overrule or muzzle the SCOTUS if it starts to mess with their reforms. They had very little patience with the courts, which they saw as the hostile guardians of privilege more often than not, obstructing "popular will", and to limit their power was a major part of their program. FDR's 'Court-Packing' scheme is only the beginning of what they could do, they could also limit judges' tenure, subject them to recall, or allow SCOTUS overrule by Congress supermajority or national referendum.

As hard as it is to change the Constitution, it's one hell of a progressive wank if you see that happen.
 
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