W.I? US T30 and T34 heavy tank moved into production

What If the US T30 and T34 heavy tanks were put into limited production and used in Europe and exported to countries that could afford them. The vehicles are replaced by the M103 in the 1960.

How effective would they be both as propaganda and operationally?
What would the Soviets create to counter the T30 and T34?
What countries could afford such heavy tanks?

Bonus scenario:
T30 and T34 heavy tanks could they defeat the Soviet T10 and T55 tank in a battle?
 
Given the difficulty the US Army had moving Pershing's around can you imagine a T30 ? They might serve in Korea or get sent to Europe until being scrapped
 
Both could defeat the T-55 and T-10 but they are HUGE vehicles and massively heavy that would be their biggest drawback (and all the reliability issues that go with it). As Killer said, they'd probably be based purely in Europe.
 
Given the difficulty the US Army had moving Pershing's around can you imagine a T30 ? They might serve in Korea or get sent to Europe until being scrapped
Everywhere the Germans were able to move King Tigers, you could run the these heavier, longer Pershings. Recall, after 1945 the Pershings were called Mediums, since they were Panther weight, not Tiger weight. Army did without OTL, because everyone thought the Atom Bomb made ground combat obsolete. Whoops.

For Korea, Army thought Shermans were too much, and had mostly M24s around at first, but not really needed as I don't DPRK or China deployed heavy tanks, just some JSU 152s.
 
Everywhere the Germans were able to move King Tigers, you could run the these heavier, longer Pershings. Recall, after 1945 the Pershings were called Mediums, since they were Panther weight, not Tiger weight. Army did without OTL, because everyone thought the Atom Bomb made ground combat obsolete. Whoops.

For Korea, Army thought Shermans were too much, and had mostly M24s around at first, but not really needed as I don't DPRK or China deployed heavy tanks, just some JSU 152s.

True and the M24 were trashed when the T34/85 came knocking the easy 8 could match it the M26/M46 could kill Soviet tanks but not sure if there were IS 2/3 tanks use by the north.
 
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For Korea, Army thought Shermans were too much, and had mostly M24s around at first, but not really needed as I don't DPRK or China deployed heavy tanks, just some JSU 152s.

The M4 in Japan with the 8th Army were in storage. Only the M24 of the reconissance unit were ready for immediate shipment to Korea. The 'ready' division of the 8th Army, the 24th ID was manned at under 50% & near 2/3 of its equipment was mothballed to save labor hours on maintenance. ie: only four 105mm howitzer batteries were manned and trained, out of nine in the division artillery group. One entire battalion was mothballed & so were a battery each in the other two battalions. The tank battalions of the 8th Army were pretty much maintiance organizations, with a small training capability. After all the armor personnel in Japan were rounded up one understrength battalion of M4 could be prepared for shipment to Korea. Completely building up the 24th ID required a emergency airlift of personnel from the US. To bring the 8th Army to combat strength shiploads of personnel were dispatched, and it was necessary to call up the Army Reserve.

This was typical of the Army in 1950. Only the 82d AB Div & some independent Regiments on special duty were kept at full strength. One of the regiments was Assigned to the UN units occupying Trieste pending a settlement over that cities fate. I think the Berlin garrison was another. A Armored Combat Command in West Germany might have been at full strength as well.
 
Technically the NKPA had two tank brigades and a group of JS vehicles of different models. One brigade was still cadre/training status & any fighting it was in was around Soeul in Septmber or further north in very small units. The other brigade operated as a unit during the advance south. It gave the unprepared US arrivals a lot of trouble. Some of the JS types supported it, but I've never been clear on how many. The brigade was attritted during the June-August battles, & destroyed when trapped south of the Incheon landing. There are descriptions of a battalion size battle, or more accurately a series of day long company & platoon actions between a US armored TF & the remnant at of the NKPA Tank Brigade in September.
 
I think the T29 would be better served than the T30 in use, while the T34 would only serve to be the stepping stone to the M103.


The M29, M30 and M34 would be more than a match for the T-10 and T-55, but by then they'd be going out of service since the M103, M47 and 48 would be coming into their own.


Service in late ww2 would be down to when exactly the tanks are looked into, if they come in they're going to be less reliable than the M4A3s and such, but both the 105mm and 120mm guns will be more than enough to kill anything they expect to face, while the T30 will most likely be used in the same role as the M12 got pressed into, blasting fortifications in close range. The biggest issue is that the T30 is 86 tons and both the T29 and T34 are about 65 tons combat loaded.
 
The T29 105mm cannon could be moved to the M48 after fixing the ammunition.
That 105mm was a monster, 6300 pounds for tube and breech, case capacity was 615 cubic inches, 2430 ft.tons of muzzle energy. RoF 6/min, with two loaders.
The Patton had the 90mm M41,2650 pounds for tube and breech, case capacity 300 cubic inches, 1509 ft. tons of muzzle energy. RoF 8/min, single loader
 
That 105mm was a monster, 6300 pounds for tube and breech, case capacity was 615 cubic inches, 2430 ft.tons of muzzle energy. RoF 6/min, with two loaders.
The Patton had the 90mm M41,2650 pounds for tube and breech, case capacity 300 cubic inches, 1509 ft. tons of muzzle energy. RoF 8/min, single loader

I wonder how it compares to the British L7 105mm.

The M29 deserves its own thread.
 
That 105mm was a monster, 6300 pounds for tube and breech, case capacity was 615 cubic inches, 2430 ft.tons of muzzle energy. RoF 6/min, with two loaders.
The Patton had the 90mm M41,2650 pounds for tube and breech, case capacity 300 cubic inches, 1509 ft. tons of muzzle energy. RoF 8/min, single loader

That's a LOT of gun, and the T-30 was a 120 or 155mm armed monster wasn't it?
 
I wonder how it compares to the British L7 105mm.

The M29 deserves its own thread.

From what I've read about it the T5, when using the same ammo as the subsequent T140 gun would be quite close to early L7 APDS performance using plain AP rounds, except AP can be superior against sloped armor. Quite logical given that it's a huge L65 while the L7 is a quite compact L52 gun. It would certainly have been a very powerful gun once the ammo was fully developped, closer to Cold War 120mm guns than to the L7.

Regarding the 105mm gun option it's worth noting that the T29 could have used the T140 later in the 1950s. The T140 was a lighter gun and further development with 160,000 psi steel would result in even lighter barrels, 4800lbs. Combine with an improved muzzle brake and new mounts and recoil absorbers and you could have a far lighter and possibly more compact gun with less recoil, thus giving more internal space in the tank. Eventually APDS ammo could reduce the weight of the round, making it easier to handle.

The T30 had a 15.5cm cannon
The T34 had 120mm almost though I am not sure same as M103 heavy tank.

Not the same 120mm. The M103 used the T123 while the T34 used the T53. Of course the T34 could eventually get this gun as well.


Now regarding the idea of having any of the T3X tanks in service, the first aspect to note is that the US Army didn't want them not necessarily because they had serious flaws, but rather because they at first didn't see the need for such tanks and because they wanted an even better heavy tank. Indeed the requirements were perhaps impossible to meet even in the 50s, especially regarding armor penetration. And of course by the 50s ammunition development and other improvements meant that the heavy tank concept became progressively obsolete. Even the M103 was outright refused by the Army and produced in low numbers for the USMC.

Considering how low the postwar US military budget was, a timeline where any of those tanks is procured likely implies that the US is far more conscious about the need to have a decent conventionnal capability, and therefore a larger budget. Given how low it was it could easily be doubled or tripled and still be about the CW average in military expenditure, so there's some room but Truman and his tax cuts are likely butterflied.

The main butterfly I could see is that the US has a far more comfortable level of R&D and will likely have less issues with technological parity with the USSR in tank design, as was the case OTL in the 50s because of a rush to get new tanks in production ASAP. This might even allow for an earlier M60A1-like MBT and butterfly the M103.

When it comes to how the T3X would compare with the Soviet JS-Series, the JS-3 would be outmatched because it was very cramped and would have awful long range accuracy, very slow ROF , only marginally better tactical mobility (except for autonomy), and the D25 gun would be too weak to penetrate the US tanks frontally. It's armor would still be tough to anything but the latest special US ammo however. The T10 is more comfortable and somewhat more mobile and better armored, but you really have to wait for the T-10M to have a jump in firepower and mobility. Alas, US MBTs and useful HEAT shells were around the corner at that point.
 
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