W.I. The Indegenous peoples of the Americas are more resistant to Eurasian and African Diseases?

Lusitania

Donor
I believe the whole point of Thor Heyerdahl's journeys with Kon-Tiki and Ra II was to demonstrate that
the respective types of boats could make those journeys, and that was decades before gps.
(Although I'm not sure exactly how modern navigational instruments were used, considering that
it was the boatbuilding technology that was the point.)

While he was demonstrating the technology he had the knowledge of modern man not the limited knowledge and any other superstitious of people back then. Heck Columbus almost faces a mutiny by his crew because he was sailing to end of the world and his ships technology was greatly superior to those before.
 
While he was demonstrating the technology he had the knowledge of modern man not the limited knowledge and any other superstitious of people back then. Heck Columbus almost faces a mutiny by his crew because he was sailing to end of the world and his ships technology was greatly superior to those before.
He was not using modern boats or gps, or even boats as advanced as those of 12th-16th century Europe or Asia,
and as noted the Polynesians, with their superstitions and limited knowledge, did more impressive/lucky discovering than
"go east/west until America is discovered".

Although getting back closer to the original subject, it should be noted that without further divergences, presumably
changing them beyond recognition, they would do bugger all to improve Indigenous American resistance to
Eurasian and African diseases.
 
I believe the whole point of Thor Heyerdahl's journeys with Kon-Tiki and Ra II was to demonstrate that
the respective types of boats could make those journeys, and that was decades before gps.
(Although I'm not sure exactly how modern navigational instruments were used, considering that
it was the boatbuilding technology that was the point.)

Kon-Tiki and Ra did not cross the whole Pacific. Here is the problem: the Pacific is vastly larger than the Atlantic. If you want to cross open ocean you need to carry supplies, particularly fresh water, for the trip. If you underestimate the amount you need, you die.

The Pacific is vastly larger than anyone would anticipate, and you'd need to carry what would appear to be ludicrous amounts of supplies. Or freakish luck in finding islands, which would raise the question of why the captain keeps sailing on after almost dying again and again.

The Polynesian did it by island-hopping over generations. And most of them probably died in the attempts. You could do it by following the northern arch of the Pacific. There was some excellent ideas here once of otter pelts inspiring traders to go further and further north and to the Americas from Asia.
Or you could do it with the practice of crossing the Atlantic. But to go from a standing start to crossing the Pacific in the middle would be... prohibitively difficult.
 
How would the Chinese even know that the silver is coming from the Polynesians instead of one of the many middlemen the trade would be coming through? It's almost 18,000 kilometers to China from the Andes.

That part would be easy the Polynesians would tell them? Our Polynesian sailor Fetu, says to the Chinese making enquires, you like this silver, do you want more of this stuff, I know where you can get it.
 
The only thing that contact from west is going to do is bring disease to the Americas to the west coast at about same time as it is coming from east coast. So we now have two sets of entry points.

A bit early though so when the whites come, they will now discover that the local natives although a lot less are more resilient to their diseases.
 

Lusitania

Donor
He was not using modern boats or gps, or even boats as advanced as those of 12th-16th century Europe or Asia,
and as noted the Polynesians, with their superstitions and limited knowledge, did more impressive/lucky discovering than
"go east/west until America is discovered".

Although getting back closer to the original subject, it should be noted that without further divergences, presumably
changing them beyond recognition, they would do bugger all to improve Indigenous American resistance to
Eurasian and African diseases.[/QUOTE
A bit early though so when the whites come, they will now discover that the local natives although a lot less are more resilient to their diseases.
the diseases brought over from west may be different or even different strains of ones from Europe so the poor natives might be double whammy. So earlier European domination
 
That part would be easy the Polynesians would tell them? Our Polynesian sailor Fetu, says to the Chinese making enquires, you like this silver, do you want more of this stuff, I know where you can get it.

Did they even know about the Chinese? I have my doubts that the Polynesians who visited South America OTL ever even heard of China, the Philippines, or any other country which China traded with. Goods from South America would pass through many hands.

Easiest root is to have the Galapagos settled by the Polynesians (from Rapa Nui), who then cross back around to the Marquesas, then the Line Islands, then Hawaii. The Hawaiians trade with the Micronesians (Marshal Islanders, Chamorro, etc.), and settle the Bonin Islands, and from there trade with Japan, who will then trade with China. This will not be a maritime equivalent of the Silk Road, the volume of trade will be pretty low. Disease will take centuries to jump from island chain to island chain (but having each new disease "staggered" is pretty nice compared to OTL). Almost no one will make the voyage from the Andes to Japan or China for the first few centuries, not until some Zheng He equivalent (who will be using ship designs the Chinese OTL never used, as the Pacific Ocean is not a pacific ocean) comes along and decides to visit these islands. Anything past the first few island chains will fade into myth and legend (like believing Nan Madol is in South America or something). This means almost no one will know the ultimate source is South America, since they'll just say they got it from the guys on the next island over.

When the Zheng He equivalent arrives in Chan Chan or wherever, then we'll see some Chinese communities emerge in the coastal towns (and some major inland cities), and a corresponding increase in the amount of trade flowing across the Pacific.

For the sake of this thread, the Polynesians need to be expanding across the Pacific a lot earlier than OTL to get this whole thing set up before the Europeans show up. Unfortunately, the death rates will still be pretty high, but (mostly) peaceful Chinese merchants spreading disease is a better scenario for the natives than conquering religious fanatics. And even if the Polynesians are settling earlier, the fact this trade route will take so long to emerge means there's likely to be precious little time left before the Europeans show up.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Did they even know about the Chinese? I have my doubts that the Polynesians who visited South America OTL ever even heard of China, the Philippines, or any other country which China traded with. Goods from South America would pass through many hands.

Easiest root is to have the Galapagos settled by the Polynesians (from Rapa Nui), who then cross back around to the Marquesas, then the Line Islands, then Hawaii. The Hawaiians trade with the Micronesians (Marshal Islanders, Chamorro, etc.), and settle the Bonin Islands, and from there trade with Japan, who will then trade with China. This will not be a maritime equivalent of the Silk Road, the volume of trade will be pretty low. Disease will take centuries to jump from island chain to island chain (but having each new disease "staggered" is pretty nice compared to OTL). Almost no one will make the voyage from the Andes to Japan or China for the first few centuries, not until some Zheng He equivalent (who will be using ship designs the Chinese OTL never used, as the Pacific Ocean is not a pacific ocean) comes along and decides to visit these islands. Anything past the first few island chains will fade into myth and legend (like believing Nan Madol is in South America or something). This means almost no one will know the ultimate source is South America, since they'll just say they got it from the guys on the next island over.

When the Zheng He equivalent arrives in Chan Chan or wherever, then we'll see some Chinese communities emerge in the coastal towns (and some major inland cities), and a corresponding increase in the amount of trade flowing across the Pacific.

For the sake of this thread, the Polynesians need to be expanding across the Pacific a lot earlier than OTL to get this whole thing set up before the Europeans show up. Unfortunately, the death rates will still be pretty high, but (mostly) peaceful Chinese merchants spreading disease is a better scenario for the natives than conquering religious fanatics. And even if the Polynesians are settling earlier, the fact this trade route will take so long to emerge means there's likely to be precious little time left before the Europeans show up.

All fine but the Polynesian trade is already too late to provide any protection to the Americans natives. If we have a trade system setup then we exponentially increase risk of disease spreading to the Americas from west coast at the same time or just before the Europeans arrive in other side of the continent.

So what is the purpose of the Polynesian trade? To bring more disease to the Americas and fuck the natives even more?

There is nothing that could of been done to prevent the spread of Eurasian and Aftican diseases to the native Americans.

What you could have happened is that some new diseases develop in the Americas in the 100-500CE that spreads throughout the continents and by time Europeans / Asians / Polynesians arrive these diseases are prevalant in all the Americas. The Europeans get infected and suffer equal bad from American diseases as the natives suffer in the Americas from Eurasian/African diseases.

European exploration, settlement and conquest of the Americas is greatly delayed as European and subsequently Middle East and Asian civilizations suffer the effects of the new diseases.

100+ years later when Europeans return they are fewer in numbers and have less negative impact and not able to conquer and steal the lands they did iOTL.
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
While he was demonstrating the technology he had the knowledge of modern man not the limited knowledge and any other superstitious of people back then. Heck Columbus almost faces a mutiny by his crew because he was sailing to end of the world and his ships technology was greatly superior to those before.

The crew were unhappy on the first voyage, but not because they thought they were going to fall off the world. They were skilled men who realised that, if they didn't find water and fresh food soon, a lot of them were going to die.

Let's not propagate myths that are nearly moribund.
 
I don’t know if people saw the animated film Moana. The background story is about how a Polynesian girl got her people to begin sailing the seas again. This is based on the Long Pause of Polynesian exploration. After settling western Polynesia and reaching the area around Samoa all exploration came to a stop, for two thousand years. Then all of a sudden they started again and in three hundred years reached Hawaii, Easter Island and New Zealand by around 1200 AD.

There are various theories why this was, but suffice to say had the Long Pause not happened the Polynesians could’ve reached the Americas before the time of Christ.
 
Kon-Tiki and Ra did not cross the whole Pacific.
That is undeniably true - Ra II went from Morocco to Barbados, and did not take the long route.

the diseases brought over from west may be different or even different strains of ones from Europe so the poor natives might be double whammy. So earlier European domination
I was thinking more about how the Polynesians were hit pretty badly by the same diseases when they
encountered them.
Fiji lost a third of its population to measles in 1875.
 

Lusitania

Donor
I was thinking more about how the Polynesians were hit pretty badly by the same diseases when they
encountered them.
Fiji lost a third of its population to measles in 1875.

So the Polynesian were already remote and isolated from Eurasia since there was little to trade between them and Eurasian countries then. That would mean while they might of been a source for some new diseases to natives in North America their isolation from Eurasian exposure for over 1,000 years meant they were as susceptible to Eurasian diseases as American natives.
 
What you could have happened is that some new diseases develop in the Americas in the 100-500CE that spreads throughout the continents and by time Europeans / Asians / Polynesians arrive these diseases are prevalant in all the Americas. The Europeans get infected and suffer equal bad from American diseases as the natives suffer in the Americas from Eurasian/African diseases.

European exploration, settlement and conquest of the Americas is greatly delayed as European and subsequently Middle East and Asian civilizations suffer the effects of the new diseases.

100+ years later when Europeans return they are fewer in numbers and have less negative impact and not able to conquer and steal the lands they did iOTL.
The problem with this is that the Europeans/Asians/Polynesians have an extra layer of protection. The long sea voyages act as a barrier to such diseases. Sailors due to their poor diet, have weaker immune systems than most, and given the length of such sea voyages, the diseases will have time to spread to the whole screw. Too many of the crew end up dead or sick and the ship won't make it back to spread the disease. And if the voyage is long enough the disease may run its course, plus a ship coming in with a visibly sick crew is liable to be quarantined

Now this won't stop disease transfer to Europe, but it will slow it down considerably, which means that more native diseases will go extinct as their host populations die form Eurasian Diseases, and thus Europe/Asia will get hit by fewer of them. So either way Europe/Asia suffers less
 
So the Polynesian were already remote and isolated from Eurasia since there was little to trade between them and Eurasian countries then. That would mean while they might of been a source for some new diseases to natives in North America their isolation from Eurasian exposure for over 1,000 years meant they were as susceptible to Eurasian diseases as American natives.
That was roughly the point, yes.
 
He was not using modern boats or gps, or even boats as advanced as those of 12th-16th century Europe or Asia,
and as noted the Polynesians, with their superstitions and limited knowledge, did more impressive/lucky discovering than
"go east/west until America is discovered".

Although getting back closer to the original subject, it should be noted that without further divergences, presumably
changing them beyond recognition, they would do bugger all to improve Indigenous American resistance to
Eurasian and African diseases.
the thing that sucks is that we don't have any documentation made by the polynesians on their techniques, so it gets hard to argue for them on internet forums.
 

Lusitania

Donor
the thing that sucks is that we don't have any documentation made by the polynesians on their techniques, so it gets hard to argue for them on internet forums.
Correct was their migration just one way east or did they sail back and forth. My limited understanding was they moved to new island group settled there then few generation later they would repeat it till they ran out of islands. Their influence or documented landing in the Americas is not known to me.
 
Correct was their migration just one way east or did they sail back and forth. My limited understanding was they moved to new island group settled there then few generation later they would repeat it till they ran out of islands. Their influence or documented landing in the Americas is not known to me.
exactly, and we can prolly say with a degree of safety that the south american coast and the Polynesian islands have way, way less historians and archeologists roaming around looking for stuff in the ground than in europe, and that counts for a lot imo.
things can be a lot more or a lot less impressive than what we think so far, who knows?
 
Top