W.I. The Hohenzollerns don't get Kleve-Mark!t

If the Hohenzollerns don't get Kleve Mark and Ravensberg would they try to expand in the Balticum?
What would be long time impact for Rheinland and Westfalen ?
 
If the Hohenzollerns don't get Kleve Mark and Ravensberg would they try to expand in the Balticum?
What would be long time impact for Rheinland and Westfalen ?
I think the main effect would be that the Hohenzollern would stay or re-convert to Lutheranism, in OTL their conversion to Reformism was to large extent a result of their attempt to strengthen their position in the Rhineland, as the Dutch and means of the minor states in the region was Reformed. Hohenzollern with greater focus on the Baltic would be more busy marrying into the Lutheran houses which dominated that region.
 
If the Hohenzollerns don't get Kleve Mark and Ravensberg would they try to expand in the Balticum?
What would be long time impact for Rheinland and Westfalen ?

Well, my first question is why don't they inherit it? Does the duke of Cleves leave an heir(ess)? Or do the Hohenzollern lose the War of the Jülich Succession? If the former, I'd say they'll focus on the Baltic and Prussia. If the latter, maybe a degree of revanchism (especially since their claim to Mark+Kleve was through the last duke's eldest sister, while the Catholic claimants were through the second/third daughter), might try and swipe them in an alt-30YW though.
 
Can you explain this to me? I thought that Salic Law meant that titles could never pass through a female line.
The Cleves-Jülich-Berg succession was a bit complicated because of that; this was an exceptional case. The United Duchies of Jülich, Cleves and Berg were united due to a series of privileges, one of which was the right of succession to the female line in case the male line became extinct. This was later muddled a bit by other such Imperial privileges, placing a bit of a higher emphasis on certain lines, though the precise interrelation wasn't very clear. AS a side note, the United Duchies were themselves united in personal union because the Duke of Cleve (and count of Mark) inherited Jülich, Berg and Ravensberg, because of his marriage to the daughter of the old Duke.

Don't forget that in the mess that was the Holy Roman Empire and the difficulty in getting one's version of justice acknowledged, there was still a bit of wiggle room as to what exactly the law was supposed to be; there was also the possibility that the (Catholic) Emperor would claim the lands for himself, although he ended up supporting one of the claimants. Add to this internal factors (the last living Duke's insanity resulted in a lot of courtly intrigue), religious divisions (Jülich was Catholic, Berg and Cleves tended protestant), and of course outside pressures by the Dutch and Spanish in addition to the Germans made the situation already very explosive by the mid 1590's.
 
Of course the survival of the duchy of the many names would gave pretty large effect on history itself. It's pretty much a state the same size as ducal Bavaria, and it would be reformed neighbour to the Dutch, which would likely use Dutch Bibles and Dutch as administrative language.
 
Of course the survival of the duchy of the many names would gave pretty large effect on history itself. It's pretty much a state the same size as ducal Bavaria, and it would be reformed neighbour to the Dutch, which would likely use Dutch Bibles and Dutch as administrative language.
Might it become part of the Netherlands later on, possibly after a Napoleon-esque dismantlement of the HRE (if such a thing still happens)?
 
Might it become part of the Netherlands later on, possibly after a Napoleon-esque dismantlement of the HRE (if such a thing still happens)?

That would be cool. Although WHICH Netherlands is open to question. If the Dutch Republic, it makes for a cool piece of extra territory (although not sure how the Dutch would claim it. OTL they got involved in the succession war IIRC to prevent the area going Catholic).

If the emperor claims it (and Rudolf apparently did contemplate doing just that), he can either keep it in direct PU with his own lands, or palm it off to brother Al when he's named duke of Brabant (in exchange for money/land elsewhere/Al's renunciation of his rights to the thrones of Hungary/Bohemia or the imperial purple).
 
Might it become part of the Netherlands later on, possibly after a Napoleon-esque dismantlement of the HRE (if such a thing still happens)?

I think it's far more likely that if we have a Bavarian sized (in population) Reformed state using and speaking Dutch (the local dialect was closely related), we will pretty much see North Rhine-Westphalia and Lower Saxony West of the Electorate of Hanover be Dutch speaking. This could either lead to Dutch being seen as a dialect of German, a much more Dutchified standard German or Dutch ending up standard German. The result of the latter two, would likely be that Netherlands would if it stayed independent, be seen as Switzerland in OTL (the Swiss on the other hand would likely be seen as Netherlands are seen in OTL). Alternative we could instead see Mega-Netherlands (as a national and cultural region) with pretty much every Frankish speaking areas and the western Low Saxon speaking areas.

Of course the most likely result are as the Dutch Golden Age ends (it will end, the rise of the Absolute State and the modern bureaucracy and army weaken the Dutch position versus foreign powers), a large Reformed state on the Dutch border, would likely seek to take power in Netherlands. If such a attempt succeed, it will create a major player in the region.
 
It could also become a Catholic state with strong ties with the Spanish Netherlands perhaps they could prevent the Dutch expansion in the Meuse valley after 1632
 
Can you explain this to me? I thought that Salic Law meant that titles could never pass through a female line.

That was usually only applied if a male line claimant existed. If all the male lines were extinct, there was no real alternative to accepting an heir in the female line. In the Middle Ages there migt be a States-General or sililar body which could claim the right to choose a new dynasty, but a monarchs got more absolute, that became a far less credible option.
 
Might keep the Prussians out of the Rhineland, but they might still end up with it if we have Napoleon come along. How much of an income did Julich Cleves etc bring in?
 
About the Salic Law were there not also cases where the most powerfull claimant took the inheritance instead the more rightfull?See Brabant what was inherited by Burgundy while there were the claimants of the House of Hessen a male cadet branch of the House of Brabant.
Why would Prussia get the Rhineland after a not Butterflied Napoleon if there sphere of influence would rather be in the East(Poland Balticum etc)
 
About the Salic Law were there not also cases where the most powerfull claimant took the inheritance instead the more rightfull?See Brabant what was inherited by Burgundy while there were the claimants of the House of Hessen a male cadet branch of the House of Brabant.
Why would Prussia get the Rhineland after a not Butterflied Napoleon if there sphere of influence would rather be in the East(Poland Balticum etc)
Depends on how Russia is being rewarded. It will want some land. As for the Partitions of Poland... Actually, there is an idea. Some sort of early union with the Wettins or the Hohenzollerns managed to join the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and take over? They could be trainers and leaders of men defending the southeast from Turks and Tartars coming to raid them. And if Brandenburg, Bayreuth, and Prussia are all in this Union, then someone rope in Saxony and Silesia... well, easy for them to get a position equal to an emperor. Though there is the religious question. I was considering them making themselves Catholic Crusader kings, but then it would make secularizing the lands of the Teutonic Order somewhat... Liery.
 
Could a strong Prussia focussed on the East keep the Russians from coming west?Perhaps Russia more interessed in Caucausus and Central Asia?lets butterfly away the Russian expansion on the Baltic and the Polish divisions
 
It could also become a Catholic state with strong ties with the Spanish Netherlands perhaps they could prevent the Dutch expansion in the Meuse valley after 1632

Indeed, as Marie of Burgundy was the only child of an only child, there was quite a long stretch in the later 15C when the Duke of Cleves was heir-presumptive to Burgundy. And if a Duke of Cleves-Burgundy had married a daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella - - -.
 
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