W Germany declared was on the Rep of Ireland?

Pangur

Donor
There was been a number of threads where the objective seems to be to get RoI into world war 2 on the side of the allies. I think all of them come at it from the angle of Ireland declaring war. I don't think that's very feasible however what if its Germany to declare war first? The PoD I have in mind is April 1941 when the Germans demand not just that RoI do not assist Belfast again after it was bombed bu also that it stops all supplies of food to the UK which is refused? That impact would it have of the war, specifically the Battle for the Atlantic but also post war and Irish membership of NATO?
 
It was crazy enough in 1941 for Hitler to add the USSR and the USA to his enemies. But Eire? That's too crazy even for Hitler! :p
 
If it is too insane for gröfaz there's always Mussolini. And if he won't do, I'm sure the IJN have a plan for encircling the US.
 
There was been a number of threads where the objective seems to be to get RoI into world war 2 on the side of the allies. I think all of them come at it from the angle of Ireland declaring war. I don't think that's very feasible however what if its Germany to declare war first? The PoD I have in mind is April 1941 when the Germans demand not just that RoI do not assist Belfast again after it was bombed bu also that it stops all supplies of food to the UK which is refused? That impact would it have of the war, specifically the Battle for the Atlantic but also post war and Irish membership of NATO?
It's a really pointlessly stupid thing to do but, well, Hitler.

Once the puzzlement recedes the following happens:
1. There is a complimentary Declaration of War against Germany as soon as the DEA figures out the procedure.
2. A visit to the USA to discuss assistance, complete with lots of reaching out to the Irish American Democrat block
3. Rather less enthusiastic talks with the UK, especially regarding ASW cooperation and air defense
4. Internment of quite a number of people who hadn't already been locked up. Just In Case...

In the medium term I'd expect
1. Much US aid and the total rebuilding of the Defense Forces
2. A significant diminution of German submarine and maratine patrol effectiveness in the Atlantic.
3. An Irish DoW against Japan after the attack on Pearl. Possibly some nominal assistance but a massive propaganda campaign to get Irish Americans to assist with the war. Probably not really needed.
4. US military bases in Ireland. Back to Whiddy, Lough Foyle, Cobh, Berehaven and Wexford? And Shannon of course.
5. A massive economic boost when US forces started arriving in numbers. And the resurrection of the Monto...

Longer term.
After the war de Valera won't be able to re-cork the genie. Significant social and economic change, perhaps an earlier loss of power for Fianna Fail? Ireland in NATO is entirely possible, the US was always interested in Shannon.
 

Pangur

Donor
It's a really pointlessly stupid thing to do but, well, Hitler.

Once the puzzlement recedes the following happens:
1. There is a complimentary Declaration of War against Germany as soon as the DEA figures out the procedure.
2. A visit to the USA to discuss assistance, complete with lots of reaching out to the Irish American Democrat block
3. Rather less enthusiastic talks with the UK, especially regarding ASW cooperation and air defense
4. Internment of quite a number of people who hadn't already been locked up. Just In Case...

Internment was a thing OTL so yeah that been expanded if required would be a given. I`m not sure what the British would want up front apart from access to ports and perhaps use of Foynes

In the medium term I'd expect
1. Much US aid and the total rebuilding of the Defense Forces
2. A significant diminution of German submarine and maratine patrol effectiveness in the Atlantic.
3. An Irish DoW against Japan after the attack on Pearl. Possibly some nominal assistance but a massive propaganda campaign to get Irish Americans to assist with the war. Probably not really needed.
4. US military bases in Ireland. Back to Whiddy, Lough Foyle, Cobh, Berehaven and Wexford? And Shannon of course.
5. A massive economic boost when US forces started arriving in numbers. And the resurrection of the Monto...

Just how the Defense forces get equipped is a good question. OTL is was mainly British weapons, 303`s and Bren guns etc. however if the UK genuinely cant provide the weapons in sufficient amounts then US gear nearly has to happen

Longer term.
After the war de Valera won't be able to re-cork the genie. Significant social and economic change, perhaps an earlier loss of power for Fianna Fail? Ireland in NATO is entirely possible, the US was always interested in Shannon.

Agreed, a totally different 50`s for starters
 
Internment was a thing OTL so yeah that been expanded if required would be a given. I`m not sure what the British would want up front apart from access to ports and perhaps use of Foynes
Probably just the ports and airbases, full overflight, information with perhaps Canadians (or 'Canadians') as security. I can't see any need for Irish troops (though a 'regularisation' of the status of those who'd enlisted in the UK forces would probably happen) until mainland Europe is invaded.

Just how the Defense forces get equipped is a good question. OTL is was mainly British weapons, 303`s and Bren guns etc. however if the UK genuinely cant provide the weapons in sufficient amounts then US gear nearly has to happen
I'd suggest US. In the short term interopeerability probably wouldn't be an issue in longer term there might well be a political preference for working under the US chain of command and logistics.

Agreed, a totally different 50`s for starters
Utterly so.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
So given the general consensus on the initial POD improbability what action short of a formal DOW would suffice for the ROI entering the war? Germany did bomb Eire.
 
As a POD perhaps a change in leaderships - no Éamon de Valera - and Ireland allows air bases for LRMPA and some ports to be used for basing of escort / hunter killer groups / refueling perhaps leads to Germany launching directed 'Punitive' attacks on Dublin, Cork and other towns -which is an effective declaration of war as far as the Irish people are concerned.

The use of additional Airbases although only perhaps 50-100 miles closer to the USA from Northern Irish bases = 50-100 miles worth of black gap (the area in the middle of the atlantic not covered by Allied Aircraft) now covered by LRMPA earlier than OTL and that is going to cut down the Uboats hunting area where they could operate with impunity to Air cover.

Weapons wise the Irish Defence Force is already using British Equipment and patterns - I would expect this to be expanded and it to further align with the British ToE.

OTL Irish service men who went AWOL and joined the British Army and they were treated badly by the Irish government upon their return - that is unlikely to happen ITTL and no need to wait 73 years for an apology from the state!

Order 32 in TTL is instead likely to be tacit permission for Officers and men of the IDF to resign from the Irish military and join the British Military - with enough volunteers there might even be an opportunity for the IDF to form a Brigade to fight alongside Commonwealth forces overseas but I suspect not.
 
Given that the Army was able to grow to 40K by '43 with US support I could see that being larger earlier and allowing for deployments of troops if needed, but yeah the main areas of this would be the opening up ports for the Atlantic. Long term the investment in infrastructure during the war would have a huge impact along with the social changes (ie the yanks training here). In terms of weapons, around 41 Ireland did source rifles from the US over concerns about supplies from the UK so depending on what happens I could see them transitioning to US standards if the US was willing to give a deal.
 

Falkenburg

Monthly Donor
Perhaps some intemperate words following accidental bombing of Free State aggravates Herr Hitler?
(Or he just gets annoyed at Irish assistance following spoiled raid on the North)

Demands for a firm declaration of 'genuine' Neutrality on the part of the Free State (possibly even over-reaching with a demand for repatriation of German Servicemen), or "Face the consequences".

Fear/panic/confusion leads to missing the deadline of such a German Ultimatum leading to aggressive action.
Assume Luftwaffe raid targeting Dublin to "Teach them to mind their own business".

Public anger combined with fortuitous collateral damage (I can dream, can't I?) sets the stage for a full-throated defiance when a German Declaration of War follows.

Irish State of Emergency declared which probably outlasts the War itself.
Blueshirts would face a choice between service or internment.
The State has a tradition of adapting to accommodate those formerly it's adversaries and in the face of an actual credible external threat I'm fairly certain personal political differences would be set aside for the duration.

The fact that Wartime co-operation and compromises would make returning to previous positions practically untenable could be 'simply' recognition of the Post War realities.

Could well see the Free State being more open to "Commonwealth" assistance as a fig-leaf.
Direct Naval and Air support inevitably British but financial and infrastructure assistance could be an easier sell to American politicians.

Propose such assistance as a way of securing a strategic forward position that would help secure the Atlantic in the event of a British collapse.
This is helping "Brave Little Ireland", not shoring up the British Empire.
Nosiree! How could you think such a thing?

National Unity Government through the War (and subsequently?) with further faster changes thereafter dependant on who one was willing to inadvertently squash in the Dublin Bombings that kicked things off.
 
Perhaps some intemperate words following accidental bombing of Free State aggravates Herr Hitler?
(Or he just gets annoyed at Irish assistance following spoiled raid on the North)

Demands for a firm declaration of 'genuine' Neutrality on the part of the Free State (possibly even over-reaching with a demand for repatriation of German Servicemen), or "Face the consequences".

Fear/panic/confusion leads to missing the deadline of such a German Ultimatum leading to aggressive action.
Assume Luftwaffe raid targeting Dublin to "Teach them to mind their own business".

Public anger combined with fortuitous collateral damage (I can dream, can't I?) sets the stage for a full-throated defiance when a German Declaration of War follows.

Irish State of Emergency declared which probably outlasts the War itself.
Blueshirts would face a choice between service or internment.
The State has a tradition of adapting to accommodate those formerly it's adversaries and in the face of an actual credible external threat I'm fairly certain personal political differences would be set aside for the duration.

The fact that Wartime co-operation and compromises would make returning to previous positions practically untenable could be 'simply' recognition of the Post War realities.

Could well see the Free State being more open to "Commonwealth" assistance as a fig-leaf.
Direct Naval and Air support inevitably British but financial and infrastructure assistance could be an easier sell to American politicians.

Propose such assistance as a way of securing a strategic forward position that would help secure the Atlantic in the event of a British collapse.
This is helping "Brave Little Ireland", not shoring up the British Empire.
Nosiree! How could you think such a thing?

National Unity Government through the War (and subsequently?) with further faster changes thereafter dependant on who one was willing to inadvertently squash in the Dublin Bombings that kicked things off.
Hell hath no fury like Ireland's scorn! :p
 
As a POD perhaps a change in leaderships - no Éamon de Valera - and Ireland allows air bases for LRMPA and some ports to be used for basing of escort / hunter killer groups / refueling perhaps leads to Germany launching directed 'Punitive' attacks on Dublin, Cork and other towns -which is an effective declaration of war as far as the Irish people are concerned.
Or simply no return of the Treaty Ports.

The use of additional Airbases although only perhaps 50-100 miles closer to the USA from Northern Irish bases = 50-100 miles worth of black gap (the area in the middle of the atlantic not covered by Allied Aircraft) now covered by LRMPA earlier than OTL and that is going to cut down the Uboats hunting area where they could operate with impunity to Air cover.
Also useful to cover the paths of subs to-from French harbours.

Order 32 in TTL is instead likely to be tacit permission for Officers and men of the IDF to resign from the Irish military and join the British Military - with enough volunteers there might even be an opportunity for the IDF to form a Brigade to fight alongside Commonwealth forces overseas but I suspect not.
I think that's rather unlikely, and unneeded.
 

Pangur

Donor
Given that the Army was able to grow to 40K by '43 with US support I could see that being larger earlier and allowing for deployments of troops if needed, but yeah the main areas of this would be the opening up ports for the Atlantic. Long term the investment in infrastructure during the war would have a huge impact along with the social changes (ie the yanks training here). In terms of weapons, around 41 Ireland did source rifles from the US over concerns about supplies from the UK so depending on what happens I could see them transitioning to US standards if the US was willing to give a deal.

In regards to infrastructure investments in ports may well have helped the post war fishing industry. One other possible advantage for the Allies would be airspace to do some final training in crappy North European climate.

Perhaps some intemperate words following accidental bombing of Free State aggravates Herr Hitler?
(Or he just gets annoyed at Irish assistance following spoiled raid on the North)

Demands for a firm declaration of 'genuine' Neutrality on the part of the Free State (possibly even over-reaching with a demand for repatriation of German Servicemen), or "Face the consequences".

Fear/panic/confusion leads to missing the deadline of such a German Ultimatum leading to aggressive action.
Assume Luftwaffe raid targeting Dublin to "Teach them to mind their own business".

Public anger combined with fortuitous collateral damage (I can dream, can't I?) sets the stage for a full-throated defiance when a German Declaration of War follows.

Irish State of Emergency declared which probably outlasts the War itself.
Blueshirts would face a choice between service or internment.
The State has a tradition of adapting to accommodate those formerly it's adversaries and in the face of an actual credible external threat I'm fairly certain personal political differences would be set aside for the duration.

The fact that Wartime co-operation and compromises would make returning to previous positions practically untenable could be 'simply' recognition of the Post War realities.

Could well see the Free State being more open to "Commonwealth" assistance as a fig-leaf.
Direct Naval and Air support inevitably British but financial and infrastructure assistance could be an easier sell to American politicians.

Propose such assistance as a way of securing a strategic forward position that would help secure the Atlantic in the event of a British collapse.
This is helping "Brave Little Ireland", not shoring up the British Empire.
Nosiree! How could you think such a thing?

National Unity Government through the War (and subsequently?) with further faster changes thereafter dependant on who one was willing to inadvertently squash in the Dublin Bombings that kicked things off.

I very much agree with the above. TBH the idea of a National Unity Government had not crossed my mind however that would be very possible and would have every chance of totally changing the political atmosphere to the point where FF and FG would have to either move to near enough where they are now politically or perish
 
That's one of those debatable points. The term itself was only introduced in '49 when the ERA was repealed. But the mish-mash of '37 legislation did not entirely eliminate the role of the King, he continued to sign Letters of Credence for example and it's actually dubious if Ireland/Eire/Éire could have signed international treaties without his assent.

Which actually has some truly fascinating implications for an Irish Declaration of War...
 
So what contributions might Ireland make to the war effort? Will we see a brigade of Irish soldiers deployed to Europe in '44/'45? Donated Royal Navy or US Navy warships in Irish colours patrolling the Atlantic alongside donated patrol aircraft? Squadrons of Irish Air Force fighters over Germany?
 
So what contributions might Ireland make to the war effort? Will we see a brigade of Irish soldiers deployed to Europe in '44/'45? Donated Royal Navy or US Navy warships in Irish colours patrolling the Atlantic alongside donated patrol aircraft? Squadrons of Irish Air Force fighters over Germany?

As I said, with only the resources of Ireland you had 40K (ish) of troops, now of course that was very limited and would need plenty of support to move into WW2 ready formations, in terms of the AC, there was plenty of plans drawn up before the War with work done with the RAF as to what squadrons would be needed, but as usual the great enemy of the DF, Finance killed the plans, I'll see if I can track down what was planned, but I don't see why if Coastal Command and USAF units were deployed on from Ireland why Irish units couldn't be built up (it also helps do something without risking large numbers). As to the Navy... the Dev Government didn't really give a monkies about the Navy, I'd bet the USN is asked back to Cobh since they worked well based out of there in WW1, post war we did have 3 Flowers (planned to have 6 but Finance), so again if the support from the Allies was there it wouldn't be impossible to have some units, doubt it would be the large fleet plan proposed back in the 20's though.

Again the main areas would be the Infrastructure for both. Ireland would most likely get port and airport builds/upgrades removing post war costs, road upgrades for supporting them, and the Allies get the gap closed a bit more, as said before the RN studies suggested the Treaty Ports could reduce loses by at least 10% during the Battle of Atlantic.
 
Top