Von Braun, Hero of the People: A TL

'would consider it'? von Braun?
Mr. "Ooo, you'll let play with rockets, Ja sure I'll sign anything" von Braun?
I suspect that's a "Da Tovarischtscht, gib' mir ein federhalter, bitte." (assuming I got the word for pen right).

reluctant? He gets to play with rockets, why's he reluctant?

He's working for Stalin, who just flattened his homeland and imprisoned him. And COMMIES! That's reason enough for anyone to be at least just a bit cautious. ;)
 
In April, as the allied forces advanced deeper into Germany, Kammler ordered the science team to be moved by train into the town of Oberammergau in the Bavarian Alps where they were closely guarded by the SS with orders to execute the team if they were about to fall into enemy hands. However, von Braun managed to convince SS Major Kummer to order the dispersion of the group into nearby villages so that they would not be an easy target for U.S. bombers.[37]In April, as the allied forces advanced deeper into Germany, Kammler ordered the science team to be moved by train into the town of Oberammergau in the Bavarian Alps where they were closely guarded by the SS with orders to execute the team if they were about to fall into enemy hands. However, von Braun managed to convince SS Major Kummer to order the dispersion of the group into nearby villages so that they would not be an easy target for U.S. bombers.[37]

Copied from Wikipedia entry on Wernher von Braun. As far as I know, Kammler (gas-chamber man - delightful to know!) grabbed control of the V2 project with Himmler's support.

Join the Soviets ? Not sure you're cooking with gas.
 
In April, as the allied forces advanced deeper into Germany, Kammler ordered the science team to be moved by train into the town of Oberammergau in the Bavarian Alps where they were closely guarded by the SS with orders to execute the team if they were about to fall into enemy hands. However, von Braun managed to convince SS Major Kummer to order the dispersion of the group into nearby villages so that they would not be an easy target for U.S. bombers.[37]In April, as the allied forces advanced deeper into Germany, Kammler ordered the science team to be moved by train into the town of Oberammergau in the Bavarian Alps where they were closely guarded by the SS with orders to execute the team if they were about to fall into enemy hands. However, von Braun managed to convince SS Major Kummer to order the dispersion of the group into nearby villages so that they would not be an easy target for U.S. bombers.[37]

Copied from Wikipedia entry on Wernher von Braun. As far as I know, Kammler (gas-chamber man - delightful to know!) grabbed control of the V2 project with Himmler's support.

Join the Soviets ? Not sure you're cooking with gas.

As I tried to make clear in the OP, some differences in the Soviet advance cause Von Braun to leave earlier before that happens.
 
Excerpt from History of the Cold War: America's Plight

With the ashes of WW2 now largely settled, the Allies set about exploiting what they could get from the remnants of the Nazi state. Operation Paperclip, authorized by President Truman, was initiated. However, it was largely a grim affair. The general feeling was that the Soviets had grabbed the prizes worth having--the likes of Von Braun and Arthur Rudolph were at this time in Russia, although Hubertus Struhold and Werner Heisenberg had managed to fall into American hands.

Some of these scientists were to located to places such as El Paso, although in hindsight their exploitation could have been greater, especially given what prizes the Soviets had caught. Nevertheless, recongizing that the Soviets had the potential to gain a lead on them with what they had, Truman expressed a desire for coherent programmes for them to fufil. Despite this, confusion and at times downright incompetance on the part of various intelligence organizers hindered this.

We can also argue that Truman and the Allied intelligence agencies underestimated just what advantages the Soviets had and what they were squandering, although to be fair we have the foreknowledge of hindsight. All in all, in terms of scientific bounty reaped from the end of the Third Reich, it is agreed that the Soviets were leaps and bounds ahead of the Americas. As we will discuss in later chapters, this streak thankfully did not go on indefinitely.
 
Excerpt from Pravda, 1st January 1946:

Earlier today, the Communist Party declared success in the launch of an experimental new form of rocket conveyance, launched from one of our secret scientific facilities. The spokesperson for the party responsible for the delivery of the announcement claimed to be a 'triumph for the Soviet people'.

This new discovery was largely spearheaded by a committee of scientists, such as Sergei Korolyev, with some aid from former capitalist-affiliated researchers turned over to our course. Comrade Stalin made a congradulatory statement to them along the statement.

This new form of rocket, nicknamed 'Zvezda', is apparently superior to the V2 weapons utilized by the fascists in the Great Patriotic War in range and performance. There are a great many applications for this, from delivery to explosives to even exploration of what is beyond our atmosphere.

Thus far, the Communist Party applauds all Soviet workers and proletariat associated with this project, which eclipses all that the West possesses.

Although we still have some ways to go with this technology, the Party says, we must still expect leaps and bounds in terms of progress.
 
Excerpt from The Truman Administration: A History

The news that the Soviets had launched what appeared to be an analogue of the German V2, especially so quickly after the war, was not unnoticed in some media circles in the United States, and also in some European nations such as Great Britain. Conservative pundits viewed this as evidence of a prelude to Soviet aggression; military leaders were unsure as to what viewpoint to adopt. Obviously, if the Soviets were going to use this for military purposes, then something had to be done, but antangonizing them was surely not a good idea at this stage.

Truman's announcement to the nation was one of neutrality, it was decided; he reported that the Soviet had launched a ranged rocket of some kind, but reassured Americans that specifications were still unknown and it was more than likely that it presented no threat to the American populance.

In intelligence centers in the nation, researchers and others pulled in by the CIA sought to establish some quantification of the Soviet missile and by extension the Soviet programme responsible. However, all the data they had to deal with was unreliable Politburo propaganda; in the end, it was decided that as the Soviets were exploiting their gains from Nazi Germany for all it was worth, and therefore further advances were to be expected. Truman considered a US programme in response, and put it down on the table as an option.

Some military leaders, such as Douglas MacArthur, decided that the Soviets may well use any such weapons they could developed, and some felt that a military strike, backed up with atomic weapons, would be the best option. Truman and most of the army staff veteoed such an idea, but still put it in as a worst case scenario option.
 
Excerpt from Von Braun and the Reds

Impressed by the results of the Zvezda, Stalin began to consider whether an arsenal of such weapons would be able to render the US superiority in terms of bombers and airpower moot. However, the politburo, along with data supplied by Korolyev, suggested that it would be best to wait until the research teams, aided by Von Braun, could continue to improve the existing technology.

When rumors began to spread in political circles of the US submarine Tunny being sighted near the Soviet Pacific coast, Stalin's mistrust of the West was further kindled. Intent on having some sort of trump card, he wondered, as some of his close advisors recalled in interviews, whether it would be best to cajole or bribe Von Braun for better results.

In the end, a combination of both was decided. However, it turned out that Von Braun and his scientists were rather enjoying their work. Their working relationship with Korolyev was present, and although some of them were worried over the political consequences of their work, Von Braun assured them that it was all in the name of scientific benefit--an attitude, some believe, he espoused purely to appease the NKVD men watching him at all times.

In any case, Stalin desired a rocket with great range and explosive capability. With Korolyev, Von Braun was able to come up with preliminary designs by late Febuary 1946. In the meantime, the west, strongly worried by the potential of Soviet international missiles, began to take measures, with submarines occasionally being dispatched near Soviet coastlines to see if the Soviets were potentially shipping out or importing components. The Cold War was not beginning well.
 
Excerpt from Von Braun: A Biography

Despite the success of the rocket launched in early 1946, Von Braun continued to remain under the monitoring and supervision of the NKVD. Although he claimed in his diaries that he was enjoying the work, we can assume that he may have been exagerrating to please his overseeres.

In any case, Korolyev, in mid-January 1946, was able to propose to Stalin a unified Soviet rocket research committee to create a more determined programme. Stalin elected to consult with some politburo advisors. It has been suggested that it was actually Von Braun, desiring extra resources and access to similar-minded men of science, who gave Korolyev the idea for this.

Regardless, towards the end of the month Stalin's approval came through, although this would not be fully implemented for a little while yet.

However, in the interim, Von Braun had had several basic 'Vodnik' rockets costructed as prototypes, which amounted to simple V1 compies. Nevertheless, Stalin was considering placing them near the German boundary as a deterrent to the west. Von Braun was worried about this, believing that it may cause unnecessary antagonization, and as interviews with some of his co-workers revealed, he was able to fabricate concerns over the quality of these missiles, stating that there were several components that needed to be rectified.

Nevertheless, Stalin had signalled that a Soviet missile programme to give it an edge in the Cold War was what he wanted. The implications of such a thing were irrelevant to him, and more worringly, it seemed that the same applied to Von Braun too.
 
However, in the interim, Von Braun had had several basic 'Vodnik' rockets costructed as prototypes, which amounted to simple V1 compies.

??? OK this is getting wierd.
1)'Waterguy/waterdemon' rockets? Why would they be called that?
2) V1's aren't rockets. Hunh? Did you mean V2?
3) why, oh, why would Russian invest in V2 equivalents as weapons? V2s were demonstrated to be almost useless in WWII. OTL, Korolyev (sp?) got permission to play with big rockets, but it wasn't until they got big enough that they could hoist an A-bomb that they were useable as weapons.
 
??? OK this is getting wierd.
1)'Waterguy/waterdemon' rockets? Why would they be called that?
2) V1's aren't rockets. Hunh? Did you mean V2?
3) why, oh, why would Russian invest in V2 equivalents as weapons? V2s were demonstrated to be almost useless in WWII. OTL, Korolyev (sp?) got permission to play with big rockets, but it wasn't until they got big enough that they could hoist an A-bomb that they were useable as weapons.

1. It's a reference. :)
2. Yeah, I guess I screwed up there...should have said flying bombs or something. :eek:
3. I never said they were exact V2 clones, and besides, I haven't yet stated their effectiveness yet. Von Braun at the team may be duping Stalin over effectiveness to have more stuff to play with (military scientists have done similar things OTL)--after all, would not the possibility of striking western cities without the risk of using vulnerable bombers appeal to the Vozhd? ;)
 
3. I never said they were exact V2 clones, and besides, I haven't yet stated their effectiveness yet. Von Braun at the team may be duping Stalin over effectiveness to have more stuff to play with (military scientists have done similar things OTL)--after all, would not the possibility of striking western cities without the risk of using vulnerable bombers appeal to the Vozhd? ;)
Ummm... A multi-stage rocket with anything like the range of a B-29/Tu-4 would probably cost as much as the plane, have 1/6 to 1/10 the payload, and be GUARANTEED not to come back.

I just can't see rockets being deployed until they can carry a huge Abomb....


Red Alert had Vodniks? OK. Never ?played? it.
 
Ummm... A multi-stage rocket with anything like the range of a B-29/Tu-4 would probably cost as much as the plane, have 1/6 to 1/10 the payload, and be GUARANTEED not to come back.

I just can't see rockets being deployed until they can carry a huge Abomb....


Red Alert had Vodniks? OK. Never ?played? it.

Like I said, that's what Stalin and the politburo might think the rockets will be like. Think about it--Von Braun'll probably think that Stalin will throw him in a gulag if he says 'oh, well I can't make anything useful', so he'll likely be all 'OMG ROCKETS PWN THE WEST' to the Soviets. ;)
 
Excerpt from Red Rockets Glare: Soviet Ballistic Science

As Stalin became more bent on a successful rocket programme, Von Braun and Korolyev began serious discussion and planning into such a device that he desired. Duplicating the V2, as some of the politburo had suggested, they decided was not a practical option--many Soviets would be surprised later over Von Braun's admissal that the weapon was not the awesome engine of domination they had assumed to be. Nevertheless, Von Braun, determined not to be eliminated out of uselessness, continued to send messages to the Soviet leadership assuring them that investment in rocket technology was a sound idea.

In any case, the first item on their agenda was a guidance system along with payload delivery. The team would labor hard on this through the first half of 1946; in the meantime, Von Braun had to balance between exagerrating the technology to Stalin and his entourage and not giving them expectations he could not fufil.

Meanwhile, Stalin had calmed down his initial aggressive intent towards the west, with his advisors telling him that anatagonizing the West was not in the best interests of the Union, and the rockets Von Braun had produced so far would not be massively instrumental strategically. Stalin, surprisingly, felt inclined to listen to sound advice in this case, and although tensions remained cold as they would for a long time to come the threat of war some people had felt would die away.

In the meantime, the Von Braun/Korolyev rocket team was granted a Siberian facilty were they could test out mock prototypes. Von Braun, again, found some Soviet compenents and equipment cheap and frustrating to work with, requiring Korolyev to focus on finding ways to effectively duplicate engineering Von Braun could work with.

Meanwhile, in August 1946, about one year after the end of the Second World War, the American and British intelligence agencies compiled several reports on Von Braun, deciding that he could potentially push the world into something over his head in the worst case scenario.
 
Excerpt from Von Braun and the Reds

As his work continued through 1946, Von Braun felt some side-projects were necessary to keep Stalin appeased. With other Soviet scientists such as Victor Makeev being drafted into his team, Von Braun decided to present Stalin with an item to keep the Soviet tyrant convinced that investment in his programme was worth it.

Von Braun and Korolyev did go through arguments over the nature of what fuel to use in their rockets; they eventually settled on a compromise, using a mixture. Nevertheless, other Soviet scientists would ignore this and simply use whatever they felt would be best suited to the item of technology at hand.

Eventually, by late 1946, Von Braun was able to present a prototype of the R-1B Zemlya, a basic missile that drew some inspiration from the V2, except with superior accuracy and guidance systems. He claimed that the missile could be launched from a simple vehicle at a location of its owner's choosing, and told Stalin that this would give him an advantage over the west. However, the Soviets were not yet able to produce it in any significant quantity as they recovered from the ravages of WW2, and some Soviet generals were unsatisifed with the explosive yield for the rocket. Nevertheless, it was put in as a backbench project, with other Soviet engineers working on refining it, and Stalin, to Von Braun's relief, expressed satisfaction with his progress thus far.

Nevertheless, this information, when leaked to the west, would spark alarm bells in London and Langley. Believing that the Soviets could potentially gain a very key advantage with superior rocket technology, much deliberation was made over what to do. Nevertheless, although at this time they were greatly overestimating what the Soviets had gained and produced thus far, Von Braun was hard at work.
 
Excerpt from Stalin: Man of Ice

With civil war raging in China, Stalin eventually saw this as an opportunity to properly test the capabilities of some of the missile weapons that captured Nazi scientists, mainly the infamous Von Braun, had been producing. Not only would this, in the case of success, aid the communists under Mao to victory, but at the same time intimidate the West with demonstrations of Soviet capability.

The main question was launching the missiles. With setting specialised launch sites deemed too impractical and time-consuming, Stalin ordered the construction of specialized launch vehicles. In these, the seeds of the future Scud systems were planted.

Mao gave full permission for the Soviets to do this, although it is doubtful that Stalin cared either way. It is unclear just when the period of testing took place; Stalin ordered it to remain secret, in order to avoid embarrassment in the event of failure. The KGB and Soviet security services did a commendable job of making sure it stayed this way. Future interviews with Chinese peasents, however, indicated that this took place in late 1946 or early 1947.

Regardless, it appears that although Nationalist forces suffered losses from such missile attacks, guidance and yield remained problems. These, however, had been recognized by the teams working on them. Stalin, seeing potential in developing both the tactical and strategic aspects of such technology, continued investing in this project. In the interim, this dealt a blow to morale of Nationalist forces in the area affected, with rumors spreading of the communists possessing weapons they had no defence against. However, most agree that in the long run it had a negilible effect on the eventual course of the civil war or the formation of the PRC.
 
Again, how is Von Braun that much more special than the rest of the German team historically employed (but whose designs went largely unused) by the Soviets?

Those scientists weren't even settled in until 1947, and the Soviet industrial complex and science were just not up to mass-production of missiles that early. Their copy of the V-2 didn't fly until 1948.

I'd argue Von Braun is a liability given his impact on the American space program...
 
Again, how is Von Braun that much more special than the rest of the German team historically employed (but whose designs went largely unused) by the Soviets?

Those scientists weren't even settled in until 1947, and the Soviet industrial complex and science were just not up to mass-production of missiles that early. Their copy of the V-2 didn't fly until 1948.

I'd argue Von Braun is a liability given his impact on the American space program...

1. The V2 wunderkind. Also more likely to suck up. 'nuff said. ;) 2. The industrial problem is acknowledged--all they've produced so far are prototypes. No mass production yet. Besides, the TL wouldn't be interesting if it was update after update of 'they sit around'. :p
 
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