Volksjager built earlier

While i was reminding myself of various german WW2 aircraft designs, i have noticed that really the tech seen in the Volksjager program of autumn 1944 was designed as far back as 1943. The OTL He-162 was not even the best design but was selected because it was the simplest and cheapest.

So what if they start the Volksjager -or perhaps another name- program in 1943, say at the time Hitler decided to have ME-262 as a bomber, for a simple good performance single engine jet fighter with a Jumo or BMW engine? In 1943 they were already studying configurations akin to He-162 with engine on the back, or frontal intake, and lastly low slung engines- worst because of debris ingestion problem. Messerschmitt, FW, and likely Heinkel and others had various designs at this stage. There was the Me-328 but that was much too weak and impractical because of the engines, they really needed something like the Me-328 but built around a jet engine.

Best configuration would be frontal intake, with straight or moderately swept wing like Me P.1092, there is also the FW Flitzer, then there are designs akin to He-162 from FW and i'm sure others.

Let's ignore for the moment political stuff like who wins the war, nukes and so on, i'm more interested in tactical changes. If these things start entering service in summer 1944 and if they build several good thousands of them what changes?

Thanks for any input.
 
The engines weren't ready any earlier.

However IOTL some 400 Me262s were actually delivered, so perhaps 800 Vjs could be delivered assuming the same number of installed/delivered engines. The Me262 fleet did a maximum of 55 FB sorties in a single in very late 44 and 58 fighter sorties in a day in March 45, again assuming engine availability was the limiting factor a Vj fleet would likely double that and perhaps even do more given the need for a single serviceable engine for a sortie. But even with 150 sorties on a good day and an exchange rate of 3:1 the Vj force isn't going to do much to the thousands of sorties the WAllied put over Europe each day.
 

trajen777

Banned
I read a good review of the HE - 162 by a Brit test pilot after the war he felt it was an excellent plane. When added with the R4M rockets you have a nice / cheap -- weapon platform. I think you would have significantly more allied casualties.
 
I read a good review of the HE - 162 by a Brit test pilot after the war he felt it was an excellent plane. When added with the R4M rockets you have a nice / cheap -- weapon platform. I think you would have significantly more allied casualties.

Winkle Brown gave it a good review. He told the pilot who flew it after him what not to do. He did it and died. Just like that.

I think you would have significantly higher German casualties.
 
While i was reminding myself of various german WW2 aircraft designs, i have noticed that really the tech seen in the Volksjager program of autumn 1944 was designed as far back as 1943. The OTL He-162 was not even the best design but was selected because it was the simplest and cheapest.

So what if they start the Volksjager -or perhaps another name- program in 1943, say at the time Hitler decided to have ME-262 as a bomber, for a simple good performance single engine jet fighter with a Jumo or BMW engine? In 1943 they were already studying configurations akin to He-162 with engine on the back, or frontal intake, and lastly low slung engines- worst because of debris ingestion problem. Messerschmitt, FW, and likely Heinkel and others had various designs at this stage. There was the Me-328 but that was much too weak and impractical because of the engines, they really needed something like the Me-328 but built around a jet engine.
...

We can try and see what Germans need in late 1943-early 1944, from a day-time fighter. They need something that can kill rugged aircraft Allies are deploying, while the fighter needs to have significant performance advantage vs. the current top-line Allied fighters. Guns - two 30mm, speed - 750 km/h if possible, to at least 8 km, anything over that is a bonus. Rate of climb - better than the current LW fighters. Germany does not have a piston engine, either in production or in pipeline, that can achieve the three requirements in one airframe. Hence jets.

So yes, press on with He 162, but with airframe suitably modified to handle MK 108 without problems.
 
Winkle Brown gave it a good review. He told the pilot who flew it after him what not to do. He did it and died. Just like that.

I think you would have significantly higher German casualties.

Like how Jimmy Doolittle could fly the GeeBee that killed and injured other pilots. Not every pilot had those kinds of skills for twitchy aircraft, esp. low hour noobs
 
The new Osprey book VOLKSJAGER UNITS has some very good information about all this.

First, it was NOT an easy aircraft to fly. Experienced fighter pilots with no jet experience had trouble converting, and apparently the throttle was stiff and if not treated gently led to flameout's and stalling. The units had trouble just getting their He-162's delivered and when they finally arrived had a LOT of quality control problems and teething troubles. Being they were built essentially by slave labor it's not surprising quality control was non-existent.

The program has to be started at least a year earlier with a lot more development time and a serious improvement in quality. And there is NO way putting Hitler Youth with just glider training into them, you'd probably lose everyone who wasn't shot down in crashes trying to land...
 

Archibald

Banned
The He-162 was a piece of shit. Luftwaffe planned to train pilots on engine-less He-162 gliders (probably to save fuel !) and then release them to He-162 squadrons. Rear visibility was poor, flight controls were extremely sensitive. After the war France was despaired of jets and took over a trio of He-162s. One of them crashed just the same way you described (Eric Brown), killing its pilot. LAst flight of a French He-162 was in 1948 and one of them survived - exposed at Le Bourget museum.
 
Heinkel He 178 first flys in August 1939. Continue jet engine and aircraft development at a much faster pace from then onwards, with the He 280 likely flying sooner than OTL Sept 1940.
 
I recall reading that whilst it was a very responsive plane it was absoutely brutal on its pilot and utterly unforgiving of ANY mistake. Short ranged and unreliable (engines) I think this would have been a fine fine killer of pilots. German ones.
 
Instead of jets, focus on getting super high performing piston fighters with long endurance and sufficient ammunition to kill several bombers.

Like the Dornier Do 335 Pfeilz. Its engine technology that was well understood by the Germans, going back to the Bf109.

Added benefit is the DO 335 could've been license produced in Japan. They already made DB engines. It could have prevented wasted resources spent on the Kyushu J7W.
 
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What it is said about the He-162 might be true, but i'm not saying that they will build the He-162 itself. I don't know which design would they select if they have a competition in late 1943, a Me, or FW or Heinkel or other design. What i'm thinking is whatever they select could be very similar to the first soviet jet powered Yak or Lavochkin - primarily because the war situation is not yet as disastruous as middle of 1944, so they might adopt a more pilot-friendly and sounder design, in OTL Volksjager competition the best design was considered the B&V P211.

The germans were certainly working on Yak-15 and La-150/52 type designs in 1943.

To go a bit further, how about a mixed powered fighter, with a piston engine at the front and a jet engine at the back?
 
To go a bit further, how about a mixed powered fighter, with a piston engine at the front and a jet engine at the back?

There was a variant of the Do-335 with a jet at the back instead of a second piston engine, that might be a good choice...
 
Would be terribly expensive though. I had something smaller in mind akin to the soviet Sukhoi and MiG compound fighters, but then they used a Campini type jet engine, however they could do 800km/h.

Anyway, looks to me that the germans could have theoretically ordered a Volksjager type fighter much earlier, say in 1942, the british ordered the Vampire even earlier and the germans certainly had the "building blocks" to do the same. Even if the engines are not in full production much earlier than OTL, they at least would have had lavish time to tweak the airframe.

Have read that apparently their best jet engine in 1942 was the HeS30, which of course was cancelled. Anyone heard of any potential defects of the HeS30 that would have precluded it's use if they would have actually stuck with it? In light of the HeS011 story, i was thinking, if the S30 was so good and had such good TW ratio (among the german jet engines) as alleged, what if they would have just upscaled it to meet the 1300kgf thrust requirement, rather than go with the complicated OTL S011?

Would the Me-262 been better with the HeS30?
 
The big problem is that jet engines require special alloys which Germany didn't have. So even fixing the problems doesn't help if the engines have a short life due to heat damage...
 
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