Voices of Doomsday
- Thread starter Geon
- Start date
Geon
Donor
There might statistically be a few mid-sized cities that survived the war. But would they survive afterwards?
First assume a city of about 20,000 inhabitants.
Let us further assume the city is fortunate enough to survive both the nuclear exchange and avoid the radioactive fallout later.
The first problem said city would have is refugees. Hundreds or thousands of them flooding in from the remnants of the destroyed cities. A surviving city would mean things to the refugees such as food, water, shelter, and medical care. Unfortunately, their presence means that these four items are going to put pressure on all four of these resources.
The city infrastructure would quickly begin to collapse under the weight of all the refugees flooding in. Lawlessness would have to be dealt with in a very draconian manner in order to maintain some sense of law and order.
The city's supply of the four items mentioned above (food, water, shelter, and medical care) would quickly run out. Food would become scarce and unless the city had arable land around it there would be no fresh food coming in. Likewise the city's fresh water supplies would likely quickly be used up depending on where they get their water supplies from. And medical care would also likely quickly degenerate to the bare basics of first aid as doctors would not be able to offer anything but the bare minimum of aid once the supplies of drugs and antiseptics ran out.
Unless the population were able to become self-sufficient very quickly it is likely you will see a fast drop off in population from starvation and illness. As the population declines and the food and water supplies diminish the survivors would either have to leave to find other places where the basic necessities exist or scrounge the surrounding countryside for what they could find.
It is likely the city in question would be abandoned by most of the surviving population. There would be a smaller group that would remain to "tough it out" no doubt and try by various means to become self-sufficient. But in an environment such as what was described in TTL for the Soviet Union any community over a certain population limit would begin to fall apart within a few months following the destruction.
I could be off base here but this is my take on what I see having happened in the USSR after TTL.
Yes, I hope to see any updates dealing with additional material from the Soviet perspective with regards to transcripts and documentation.
Geon
Donor
Regarding surviving documentation, a lot will depend on whether the bunkers in question survived or not. According to Amerigo's information in TTL the U.S. evidently knew where a lot of these bunkers were and targeted them. In many cases documentation such as transcripts and other such information might not have survived or be in unrecoverable for many years to come.
Still. It is food for thought.
Most of the command/control bunkers would have been destroyed. Any ideas what bunkers might have been spared?
Still. It is food for thought.
Most of the command/control bunkers would have been destroyed. Any ideas what bunkers might have been spared?
i guess those the Americans were not aware they exist
and there were allot stuff, the soviet build under ground the CIA had not discovers and became public at end of cold war
like top secret Submarine base Super Bunker in Back sea, Kola Peninsulad and Pacific coast
and there stuff like Metro-2 under Moscow...
Moscow got leveled by 100 megatons of nuclear force i doubt anyone is gonna be able to survive for long even in the metro
What does the light green stand for - uninhabited nuclear wilderness?Actually, there was one made.
(^ above: zoom in on the green zone?)
If so, why does germany, of all places, have so many communities, but Northern France and Italy don't?
yes, low population or no one
So far i know is that error by the illustrator of that Map
if i recall the Timeline there are Small german State south to Swiss border
but for rest north France, Belgium Netherlands, Luxembourg north West Germany and East Germany
are nuclear waste land far into 1990s with small commune here and there.
While allot refugee from there, went to south direction South France, Spain, Italy.
Geon
Donor
It was no error. In the original timeline by Vespucci we learn that after the war there is a huge lawless zone east of the Rhine. Small feudal "nations" are all that is left. And the situation becomes worse as you head eastward. If you read my last three entries "Back to the U.S.S.R." you'll see how bad things are in one of these areas. Most civil authority collapsed after the war and never recovered.
i wonder how far would USA help there former NATO partners in this ?
keeping there survivors Troops in Europe to maintain Law and Order by establish areas were refugee are save ?
or even that USA to administrate, the former European nations until they recover ?
Germany: Which Path Shall You Take?
Geon
Donor
@Michel Van Some of your questions are answered below. Since the thread is restarted I decided to add this little snippet in.
----------------------------------------
As the 50th anniversary of World War III is observed by various ceremonies throughout the world in the city-state of Berlin there is a special somber mood remembering this dark period.
Berlin was one of the few European capitals that was spared when the general nuclear exchange began. Neither the Soviets nor NATO would target the city for fear of killing their own troops. The Berlin garrisons Soviet and Allies were left to fight it out street to street – until it no longer mattered.
Within a month the fighting had ended. There was no agreement by the opposing forces to stop fighting. The fighting slowly died out as it became apparent there was nothing left to fight for. Both East and West German governments had collapsed. There was no communication with any Soviet commander higher than the East Berlin, garrison, the same for NATO. It quickly became apparent to both sides that the war for control of Berlin was over, the war for survival had begun in earnest.
For several months the Berliners struggled to survive both soldier and civilian on an island in the middle of a nuclear wasteland. Large sections of Germany had been hit by tactical and strategic nuclear strikes. Millions of their fellow countrymen were dead. Millions more were dying or seeking to find refuges away from their ruined cities and towns.
For the people of Berlin this was the time known as the “second hunger time”, reminiscent of the “first hunger time” following the second World War. Only this time there was no Marshall Plan, no Berlin airlift. Instead there were small groups sent out to scrounge the various stores and the countryside for food and other needed supplies. There was strict rationing in order to survive the fierce winter of ’62-’63. There were burial details to bury the growing number of dead from starvation and disease.
Spring brought hope as the U.S. military in conjunction with surviving units of British forces in Europe sent word to evacuate the remainder of U.S. and British forces in Berlin. Many of the Berlin survivors decided to leave with the Anglo/American units in the hope of finding better conditions elsewhere. The remnants of the Soviet garrison in Berlin left at roughly the same time in the hopes of finding their way back to their homes.
But Berlin has not been named “the city that would not die” for nothing. A hardy group of survivors chose to stay. Berlin had been their home and some of them had parents and grandparents that has suffered through the worst of both previous world wars. They were not about to allow yet another one to force them to leave their city.
Thus, the city-state of Berlin was born. Created by the survivors of both East and West Berlin it is now the most prosperous of the dozens of nation/states in what has become known in most of Europe as the German Dead-Zone or simply the Lawless Zone. Over the last 50 years by a combination of capitalism and socialism the city/state of New Berlin has slowly but surely emerged as one of the more prosperous city/states and a beacon of light in the middle of the ruins of the former German Republics.
New Berlin can boast a population that is able not only to feed itself but also to export some food to those around it. It also has rebuilt its infrastructure if not to pre-war levels at least to the point where transporting goods is not a major problem. It is at present the only part of former Germany stable enough to have diplomatic relations with many of the western nations and a representative in the new U.N. New Berlin is a shining example of one path a new Germany may take.
But New Berlin is the exception to the rule. After the collapse of the civilian government during the war widespread lawlessness was the norm simply for survival’s sake. The German population was effectively abandoned by the rest of the world. Eastward was a continuing lawless zone into Poland. Westward the bridges over the Rhine were destroyed either during the war or afterward by the French. And any refugees that attempted to cross the Rhine into France were shot by French soldiers.
There was no escape to the north as Denmark had closed its borders to refugees, although the Danes were not as draconic as the French were in keeping refugees out. To the Northwest the Benelux countries were for the most part flooded out of existence by the destruction of the dikes leading to precious little land left for survivors.
To the south Austria still had open borders but their supplies were limited and soon exhausted by the wave of refugees that headed there. And still further south the Swiss chose to create labor camps to imprison German refugees and in a grim repetition of what had happened a generation before worked many of the German refugees to death or at the end forced them out of the camps to slowly freeze to death.
The German survivors of the war found themselves prisoners in their former home.
With no civilian government left local strongmen rose to power in many areas. In others enclaves of survivors elected local councils in order to try to establish some order.
But for the first decade or so following the War these various groups would fight a war for survival among themselves. There were too few resources and too many survivors. Local city-states fought over a tank farm of gasoline, a few fields of wheat, a cache of medical supplies. Anything that could help them survive the coming winter and the constant hunger.
It will never be known how many thousands died during this period of warfare between Germans. What is known that out of this time of warfare emerged dozens of smaller nation-states like unto New Berlin. Each with a different government.
However, these nation states were not stable. Between coups, counter coups, revolutions, counterrevolutions, and annexations by neighbors the borders of the various nation-states in the Lawless Zone shift on an almost daily basis. Add to this the number of roving paramilitary marauder bands that are constantly seeking either to plunder various populations or to out and out take over a nation state and it becomes clear why no map can currently show a clear picture of the former German Republics.
In this environment there are troubling signs that an old terror may be raising its head.
In what is now known as the German People’s Republic of Munich a reborn version of the old National Socialist Party has recently seized power. Led by a charismatic young man by the name of Guenther Heidler [fictional name], this new brand of Nazism has over the last few years brought law and order to a lawless area – at the price of personal liberty and human rights. Those of non-German ethnicity or of “mixed blood” are being exiled from this new nation-state. While Munich can boast it is able to feed its population now there are growing reports of various human rights abuses, of torture and beatings of those who dissent against this New Order.
More worrying is the call by Heidler for the reunification of Germany. The New National Socialist Party preaches a reunification of the German state and a new nationalism that its forbears would be proud of. It even speaks of one day “punishing” those nations who destroyed Germany and then left its people to die,
To hungry and destitute people who are barely able to eke out a living on the land and have memories of what was done to their parents during the War this message has an attraction. In 1918 the myth of the “stab in the back” was an ideological notion that fueled the rise of Nazism. With the draconic policies of France and Switzerland still fresh in the minds of many Germans and the feeling that the rest of the world abandoned Germany the idea of a second such myth is not hard to craft by this new ultra-right movement.
Many in neighboring city-states have begun to flock to Heidler’s message. While the numbers as of now are small it needs to be pointed out that the Nazi party in the 20’s started as a small minority and rose to become one of the major parties in the German legislature. As one modern British Prime Minister Tony Blair commented, “We must never forget that Hitler was given power in a democratic Germany.
The hour is still early, but at this point New Berlin and the GPRM are the two extremes illustrating directions that the people of Germany may follow. Whether they will follow the beacon of hope that is New Berlin or the dark seduction of the GPRM is a story for future generations to write.
----------------------------------------
Germany: Which Path Shall You Walk?
An essay in Newsweek magazine October 24, 2012
An essay in Newsweek magazine October 24, 2012
As the 50th anniversary of World War III is observed by various ceremonies throughout the world in the city-state of Berlin there is a special somber mood remembering this dark period.
Berlin was one of the few European capitals that was spared when the general nuclear exchange began. Neither the Soviets nor NATO would target the city for fear of killing their own troops. The Berlin garrisons Soviet and Allies were left to fight it out street to street – until it no longer mattered.
Within a month the fighting had ended. There was no agreement by the opposing forces to stop fighting. The fighting slowly died out as it became apparent there was nothing left to fight for. Both East and West German governments had collapsed. There was no communication with any Soviet commander higher than the East Berlin, garrison, the same for NATO. It quickly became apparent to both sides that the war for control of Berlin was over, the war for survival had begun in earnest.
For several months the Berliners struggled to survive both soldier and civilian on an island in the middle of a nuclear wasteland. Large sections of Germany had been hit by tactical and strategic nuclear strikes. Millions of their fellow countrymen were dead. Millions more were dying or seeking to find refuges away from their ruined cities and towns.
For the people of Berlin this was the time known as the “second hunger time”, reminiscent of the “first hunger time” following the second World War. Only this time there was no Marshall Plan, no Berlin airlift. Instead there were small groups sent out to scrounge the various stores and the countryside for food and other needed supplies. There was strict rationing in order to survive the fierce winter of ’62-’63. There were burial details to bury the growing number of dead from starvation and disease.
Spring brought hope as the U.S. military in conjunction with surviving units of British forces in Europe sent word to evacuate the remainder of U.S. and British forces in Berlin. Many of the Berlin survivors decided to leave with the Anglo/American units in the hope of finding better conditions elsewhere. The remnants of the Soviet garrison in Berlin left at roughly the same time in the hopes of finding their way back to their homes.
But Berlin has not been named “the city that would not die” for nothing. A hardy group of survivors chose to stay. Berlin had been their home and some of them had parents and grandparents that has suffered through the worst of both previous world wars. They were not about to allow yet another one to force them to leave their city.
Thus, the city-state of Berlin was born. Created by the survivors of both East and West Berlin it is now the most prosperous of the dozens of nation/states in what has become known in most of Europe as the German Dead-Zone or simply the Lawless Zone. Over the last 50 years by a combination of capitalism and socialism the city/state of New Berlin has slowly but surely emerged as one of the more prosperous city/states and a beacon of light in the middle of the ruins of the former German Republics.
New Berlin can boast a population that is able not only to feed itself but also to export some food to those around it. It also has rebuilt its infrastructure if not to pre-war levels at least to the point where transporting goods is not a major problem. It is at present the only part of former Germany stable enough to have diplomatic relations with many of the western nations and a representative in the new U.N. New Berlin is a shining example of one path a new Germany may take.
But New Berlin is the exception to the rule. After the collapse of the civilian government during the war widespread lawlessness was the norm simply for survival’s sake. The German population was effectively abandoned by the rest of the world. Eastward was a continuing lawless zone into Poland. Westward the bridges over the Rhine were destroyed either during the war or afterward by the French. And any refugees that attempted to cross the Rhine into France were shot by French soldiers.
There was no escape to the north as Denmark had closed its borders to refugees, although the Danes were not as draconic as the French were in keeping refugees out. To the Northwest the Benelux countries were for the most part flooded out of existence by the destruction of the dikes leading to precious little land left for survivors.
To the south Austria still had open borders but their supplies were limited and soon exhausted by the wave of refugees that headed there. And still further south the Swiss chose to create labor camps to imprison German refugees and in a grim repetition of what had happened a generation before worked many of the German refugees to death or at the end forced them out of the camps to slowly freeze to death.
The German survivors of the war found themselves prisoners in their former home.
With no civilian government left local strongmen rose to power in many areas. In others enclaves of survivors elected local councils in order to try to establish some order.
But for the first decade or so following the War these various groups would fight a war for survival among themselves. There were too few resources and too many survivors. Local city-states fought over a tank farm of gasoline, a few fields of wheat, a cache of medical supplies. Anything that could help them survive the coming winter and the constant hunger.
It will never be known how many thousands died during this period of warfare between Germans. What is known that out of this time of warfare emerged dozens of smaller nation-states like unto New Berlin. Each with a different government.
However, these nation states were not stable. Between coups, counter coups, revolutions, counterrevolutions, and annexations by neighbors the borders of the various nation-states in the Lawless Zone shift on an almost daily basis. Add to this the number of roving paramilitary marauder bands that are constantly seeking either to plunder various populations or to out and out take over a nation state and it becomes clear why no map can currently show a clear picture of the former German Republics.
In this environment there are troubling signs that an old terror may be raising its head.
In what is now known as the German People’s Republic of Munich a reborn version of the old National Socialist Party has recently seized power. Led by a charismatic young man by the name of Guenther Heidler [fictional name], this new brand of Nazism has over the last few years brought law and order to a lawless area – at the price of personal liberty and human rights. Those of non-German ethnicity or of “mixed blood” are being exiled from this new nation-state. While Munich can boast it is able to feed its population now there are growing reports of various human rights abuses, of torture and beatings of those who dissent against this New Order.
More worrying is the call by Heidler for the reunification of Germany. The New National Socialist Party preaches a reunification of the German state and a new nationalism that its forbears would be proud of. It even speaks of one day “punishing” those nations who destroyed Germany and then left its people to die,
To hungry and destitute people who are barely able to eke out a living on the land and have memories of what was done to their parents during the War this message has an attraction. In 1918 the myth of the “stab in the back” was an ideological notion that fueled the rise of Nazism. With the draconic policies of France and Switzerland still fresh in the minds of many Germans and the feeling that the rest of the world abandoned Germany the idea of a second such myth is not hard to craft by this new ultra-right movement.
Many in neighboring city-states have begun to flock to Heidler’s message. While the numbers as of now are small it needs to be pointed out that the Nazi party in the 20’s started as a small minority and rose to become one of the major parties in the German legislature. As one modern British Prime Minister Tony Blair commented, “We must never forget that Hitler was given power in a democratic Germany.
The hour is still early, but at this point New Berlin and the GPRM are the two extremes illustrating directions that the people of Germany may follow. Whether they will follow the beacon of hope that is New Berlin or the dark seduction of the GPRM is a story for future generations to write.
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Nice but also right of the bat, with a population so low even for the standard of post-war Europe, there is no way germany would ever be a threat to other countries again - as a conventional occupation force, that is. Nazi terrorism might become a thing, though. Just a vast zone of warlords spawning terrorists on a semi-regular basis and frustrating any occupation force trying to pacify it.
While I get why the future is kinda left open here, it IS interesting to ponder when exactly the lawless zones and micro states would be claimed by bigger nation states again. It is hard to imagine these lands just sitting empty and left to their local tribes, for more than say a century at least.
Personally, I can see something like protectorates, perhaps even an internationally recognized mandate system emerging, with countries like France, Austria and Switzerland dividing germany into occupation zones where they run security and foreign policy (and possibly extract resources) but don't formally annex. Then the next question becomes when (a) german state(s) would be recognized as sovereign again or formally annexed etc., a bit how decolonization happened.
And that's not even getting into Eastern Europe.
Either way, thanks a lot for expanding this again.
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some notes on post
West Berlin had reserve for another blockade - 6 month on Food, water, fuel
so it give Inhabitants chance during War
That Nazi rise again in Germany is realistic
way back in 1962 were high rang Nazi alive and some try to to establish Far right Party
With chaos of War would give those Nazi chance to return to Power in Bomb out and Radioactive wasteland
The Irony
sound like Norman Sprinrad sci-fi novel "The Iron Dream"...
West Berlin had reserve for another blockade - 6 month on Food, water, fuel
so it give Inhabitants chance during War
That Nazi rise again in Germany is realistic
way back in 1962 were high rang Nazi alive and some try to to establish Far right Party
With chaos of War would give those Nazi chance to return to Power in Bomb out and Radioactive wasteland
The Irony
sound like Norman Sprinrad sci-fi novel "The Iron Dream"...
Important to note also that there would be no love for liberal democracy in this TL, as from the perspective of Munich, it was Empire, Weimar, the Nazis, then 17 years of democracy in a western puppet state and dictatorship in an eastern puppet state (which directly lead to Nuclear anihilation overshadowing WWII by far), then many, many decades of survival feudalism. They might very well convince people that the nazis were the most legitimate, most "sovereign" and indigenous form of government after all.
Geon
Donor
Just some observations. As far as I know Austria as a nation doesn't exist anymore. Her southern borders were used as the work camps by the Swiss after the war for refugees. And I am sure the GPRM will LOVE to draw a comparison on those camps and the hypocrisy of "those nations" that brought about this catastrophe.
Switzerland doesn't have the manpower nor the inclination to start occupying any of the lawless zone. Plus they earned a LOT of international condemnation once the world community learned what was happening in the camps. They are content to sit in their enclave in the Alps secure and safe.
France might move into some of the Ruhr valley area enclaves now that she's getting her domestic house in order. But she still has a long road ahead of her. Her army is mostly needed to maintain order both in France and her remaining holdings. It might be a few decades before she decides on any expansion.
The only remaining nation in Europe that might take an interest in the German situation is Britain. But her government is far from a stable one. And she has continuing domestic problems at home. She might be able to send troops to aid New Berlin in the event of a crisis but I don't see her getting involved in the morass that is the lawless zone.
It will take time for GPRM to solidify its hold in Munich. And it won't be an overnight thing. In fact at this point I could see the GPRM could be taken down easily if there were stronger neighbors. But at this point everyone is busy trying to make certain they have enough food to make it through the next winter. The situation is like unto the one after World War I with the Weimar Republic only much worse. And @Michel Van is right there would still be enough of the "old guard" left at the end of the war who would see this as the fulfillment of the "prophecies" of Hitler should Germany lose World War II.
As I think about this the present situation is a reverse scenario of what happened in @CalBear s excellent AANW timeline. There Germany is ruined at the end of World War II and Nazism is discredited for all time. Here Germany is ruined by World War III and many of its cities rendered uninhabitable and Nazism (sadly) appears to be vindicated.
Interestingly as I type this it occurs to me one of the growing world powers that might take an interest in this situation would be Israel. The idea of a reborn Nazi German state would definitely not suit them. I'm not saying they'll nuke Munich. That would be like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly. But, they could steal a page from the old U.S./Soviet cold war book and start surreptitiously supporting New Berlin and whatever other relatively stable governments still exist in the lawless zone as a buffer against the GPRM.
Also, one other thing to bear in mind. This lawless zone isn't just the former two German republics. It includes Austria and much of Eastern Europe and all of what's left of Russia, the situation getting worse the further east you go. By the time you get into Russia you don't even have the semblance of a nation-state, just various towns, villages, and some small cities that survived the war and may have formed loose alliances for survival or may be fighting each other for resources.
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Bookmark1995
Banned
I believe you could see the rise of some far-right backlash, but not specfically Nazism itself.
There are hardly any Jews to persecute, no ability to wage war for Lebensraum.
I can picture somewhat xenophobic survivalist communities, but that might melt away if aid comes in from outside.
@Geon, I'm so happy to see this back again,and can't wait for anything more you may do for this.
I always remember Berlin surviving, but the original TL never talked about it much other that it was surrounded by a wasteland. It actually an lot more hopeful than I would have thought it would turn out to be, so thank you for that.
Damn, both the Swiss, and the GPRM are not the best 'paths' to be frank to follow, even within this nightmare of Old Germany.
I always remember Berlin surviving, but the original TL never talked about it much other that it was surrounded by a wasteland. It actually an lot more hopeful than I would have thought it would turn out to be, so thank you for that.
Damn, both the Swiss, and the GPRM are not the best 'paths' to be frank to follow, even within this nightmare of Old Germany.
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