VK3601H or VK3001H with 88mm gun instead of Panther

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Deleted member 1487

If the new tank is wasted in another Kursk assaulting heavily fortified positions but if the "new kid" is ready, reliable and available in numbers a few months before the Panther it might make a difference. IIRC Zitadelle was postponed from an original launch in May to July, because Hitler wanted to wait for the new Panthers (of which many broke down before reaching the front :rolleyes:), but the later start bought enough time for the Soviets to massively reinforce the front around Kursk. It might be possible to have a German victory.

With less Soviet troops present a defeat will of course not be as hard felt as if in OTL Kursk/Zitadelle, but would still be a huge shock that probably would overshadow the succes at Stalingrad.

Anything could still happen but the biggest danger to an allied victory probably would be the Wallies doing something stupid like invading NW Europe before actually being ready.

For the Germans the biggest danger is the GroFaZ effect (Hitler thinking he is the best commander ever) - what is won in one battle is lost in the next.

For the Soviets it will be a huge disappointment. In OTL they were surprised to see the Wehrmacht strike back at Kharkov after Stalingrad, but Kursk regained their self confidence. In OTL it was not at least Zhukov who advocated the strategic defensive at Kursk and in OTL it worked (and brought him fame). In this ATL it doesn't and I suppose Zhukov is finished - that alone might be significant.

Kursk was quite reinforced already in May, but it got more so over the following 6-8 weeks. I'm going to assume this "Panzer V" gets into production in December 1942 and is reasonably reliable. So come May 1943 it has 5 months of production under its belt and that much training on the new type. Not sure that a few hundred or even 800 of the new Panzers would make that much of a difference, even if the attack is launched in May 1943. The big benefit would probably come later once production has picked up and it would probably be more of a surprise once introduced if there is no Tiger fiasco at Leningrad in late 1942.
 
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Redbeard

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Kursk was quite reinforced already in May, but it got more so over the following 6-8 weeks. I'm going to assume this "Panzer V" gets into production in December 1942 and is reasonably reliable. So come May 1943 it has 5 months of production under its belt and that much training on the new type. Not sure that a few hundred or even 800 of the new Panzers would make that much of a difference, even if the attack is launched in May 1943. The big benefit would probably come later once production has picked up and it would probably be more of a surprise once introduced if there is no Tiger fiasco at Leningrad in late 1942.

The main effect is not some new gadget at the front, it rarely is, but that Zitadelle is launched in May instead of July.

And yes Kursk was "reinforced" by May, that is the point of Zitadelle- to achieve another encircling like those of 1941. There has to be something to encircle, which there was in May 43, but not nearly as much as in July, when it probably was nigh on impossible to win Zitadelle - even if the WoT tech tree had been available to the Wehrmacht :D
 
Problem is the Pak40 cartridge was 714mm long, vs 640mm for the kwk42
The 17pdr was 583mm
88mm Kwk36 was 571mm

Long rounds need more area in the turret for the loader to swing around


You make a good point (that is casing lenth there), however the total length of the ammo was in the ballapark for the Pak 40 and Kwk 42.
My choice for the ammo from Pak 40 was driven by notion that it contains more propellant, 'main' charge being 2,75 kg for Patr. 39 (AP) and 2,70 kg for for Patr. 40 (APCR); vs. the KwK 40 with 2,43 kg and 2,18 kg for equivalent ammo of Kwk 40. Thus a next barrel of L60 makes plenty of sense for the Pak 40 ammo, less so for the Kwk 40 ammo.
For the Kwk 42 (Panther's) ammo - 4 kg for Patr. 39/42, and 3.3 kg for Patr 40/42, for comparison sake.

Granted, the Germans can come out 1940 with a case long ~500-550 mm, but as wide as of Kwk 42, containing 2,5 - 3 kg of propellant, that would work fine with L45 and L60 barrel.
 
This jump from 24t panzer-IV to Tiger-1 's 55t was big inaf to slowed down production number. Tiger had some logistic problems, but no much more than Kv-1C or Kv2 . Tiger was good in speed for this time, better of Matilda's and Char-Bbis/ter ... Realy one pz4 + one vk3001 = Tiger 1 in weight(approx) . If sturer-emil was operate in 42',tank on this platform may be produced in bigger number than Tg1,and it can be surprising oponent for T34/85 which no existed in 1942! In this time refinment of pz4 by Guderian's proposals had be urgently acceptable. Composition for battle in 42' : vk3002/70/+3001spg105,88,75(+sturer emil), pzIV/75mm+StugIII with equal 75mm gun,pzIII long 50mm gun as tank-hunter for cavalry and light oponent and flank-tank
 
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Tiger1 may stay as last reserve. If enemy launch decide counterattack, to acheive victory, as marshal Жуков did, kept tigers in reserve until last moment. Just when oponent cross last defensive pincer, You can signed defenders for witdraw positions,and then Tigers attack enemy break-units. Not attack with tiger forward,this gun was for biger distances.Panther was not urged, slow upgrading status and aufs G may be operate cca 1944; King tiger was not need,until Is-2 attacked in mass number; Schmalturm Panter2/~E50/ may be quite inaf and better for 1945. King with 69t may be refined for 1947 year with 128mm gun( aka E75) King was 80% operational in winter 44/45,this was good.Bad was lack of Porshe's hybrid engine,King was often immobilised,without fuel. Back to normal tanks, conversion pzIII/IV was planned 1944; according to soviet Kv13 or T43, this was not need, but trial with pzIII/IV was better option than " Maus" amphibia, and also for airborne div with pz2L .
 
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And conclusion may be: a Vk3001h may be good SPG platform ; they converted 4090 panzerIV chasis for sturmpanzers,jagdpanzers,etc. Vk3001h may modified all of them, and they may produce 4000 pz IVh or J more,and also cca 400 panthers more, because VkH may be constructed as " Hummel"/"jagdpanther" for 88mm gun.also they not need jagdtiger, sturer emil was good inaf,and you can count 80 tiger2tanks more
 
Kursk was quite reinforced already in May, but it got more so over the following 6-8 weeks. I'm going to assume this "Panzer V" gets into production in December 1942 and is reasonably reliable. So come May 1943 it has 5 months of production under its belt and that much training on the new type. Not sure that a few hundred or even 800 of the new Panzers would make that much of a difference, even if the attack is launched in May 1943. The big benefit would probably come later once production has picked up and it would probably be more of a surprise once introduced if there is no Tiger fiasco at Leningrad in late 1942.
This variant for waiting new tank and commanded action 2 mounts latter is bad; also bad was complicated attack in Stalingrad 42'. TIGER was reason for wait; Germany can not attack SSSR before Tiger1 stay fully operational .And strategic, before armistice with UK, and between Italy and UK , any " Barbarossa" attack was stupid . They must attack Gibraltar, and Malta, no Moscau,Leningrad, etc .
 
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