VK3001P Instead of Panther

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Following this post's idea, what if Porsche's VK3001P had been chosen to replace the Panzer IV? It was in just the right weight range (30+tons) and was tested already throughout 1940-41. It didn't have sloped armor and its motors were unreliable, but those issues probably could have been worked out for an introduction in the late 1943-early 44 timeframe. Thoughts?
 

Deleted member 1487

The tank wasn't delivered until 1941 and had a horrible gasoline electric engine that used way too much copper and never worked right.
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/235224-vk-3001-p-worst-tank-ever/
http://fingolfen.tripod.com/tiger/vk3001p.html
The project was abandoned in 1941 when the armament criteria changed. The army at that point wished to mount the 8.8cm gun in any tank heavier than the Panzer IV which the turret of the VK 3001(P) could not accept this gun (nor could any other VK 3001). The only flaw discovered in the design was the unreliability of the gasoline engines. Experience gained by Porsche with the development of the VK 3001 was used in the development of the VK 4501(P). This vehicle was one of the two prototypes entered in the competition which resulted in the Tiger I tank.
 

Deleted member 1487

I would think it would be possible to use a different engine, perhaps the one the OTL Panther used. For the gun, it wouldn't have to have the 8.8, just the 75mm L70, which weighed less.
It would require until 1943 for introduction, as using a Panther engine would require major redesign and delayed testing, as well as a weigh increase. At that point you're just better off with the Henschel design.
The 75mm L70 would have required time for a turret and turret ring redesign too, as it was only designed to handle the 75mm L24 initially (same problem with the Henschel design). Both VK3001 designs had narrow tracks and interweaved road wheels too. No sloped armor either. They were basically the same as the Panther minus the good stuff, but lower weight. At that point you're better off just using the Pz IV until 1944 and switching to a better Panther design.
 
It would require until 1943 for introduction, as using a Panther engine would require major redesign and delayed testing, as well as a weigh increase. At that point you're just better off with the Henschel design.
The 75mm L70 would have required time for a turret and turret ring redesign too, as it was only designed to handle the 75mm L24 initially (same problem with the Henschel design). Both VK3001 designs had narrow tracks and interweaved road wheels too. No sloped armor either. They were basically the same as the Panther minus the good stuff, but lower weight. At that point you're better off just using the Pz IV until 1944 and switching to a better Panther design.

All the pictures of it I can find, including the drawing in your second link, show it having non-interleaved road wheels and what look to be at least relatively wide tracks. Why would a different engine have required such changes? Were the Panther's dimensions so different? For the sloped armor, as I said in the other thread, I think holding off on introducing the Pz IV's successor until 1944 would be a good idea in any case, there just isn't a need to replace it until then. I would think, if the 3001P is selected in late 1941 and given all the development resources of the OTL Panther prototypes, it could be redesigned with sloped armor and reconfigured for the new engine and turret throughout 1942 and would then have the entirety of 1943 to work out the kinks.
 

Deleted member 1487

All the pictures of it I can find, including the drawing in your second link, show it having non-interleaved road wheels and what look to be at least relatively wide tracks. Why would a different engine have required such changes? Were the Panther's dimensions so different? For the sloped armor, as I said in the other thread, I think holding off on introducing the Pz IV's successor until 1944 would be a good idea in any case, there just isn't a need to replace it until then. I would think, if the 3001P is selected in late 1941 and given all the development resources of the OTL Panther prototypes, it could be redesigned with sloped armor and reconfigured for the new engine and turret throughout 1942 and would then have the entirety of 1943 to work out the kinks.
The picture I posted I thought had interweaved wheels, it was just a poor picture. You're right its just torsion bar suspension. The different engines had different dimensions and weights. Likely the engine compartment was not designed around the bigger, higher HP, heavier HL230. Yes, the Panther was bigger than the VK3001 prototypes.

So what you are suggesting is just that Porsche does a VK3002 design? He was fixated on the VK4501P design at the time and not eligible for the project, same reason why Henschel, also working on the Tiger prototype and who got the contract in the end, didn't get a VK3002 offer.
 
The picture I posted I thought had interweaved wheels, it was just a poor picture. You're right its just torsion bar suspension. The different engines had different dimensions and weights. Likely the engine compartment was not designed around the bigger, higher HP, heavier HL230. Yes, the Panther was bigger than the VK3001 prototypes.

So what you are suggesting is just that Porsche does a VK3002 design? He was fixated on the VK4501P design at the time and not eligible for the project, same reason why Henschel, also working on the Tiger prototype and who got the contract in the end, didn't get a VK3002 offer.

Well, what I am suggesting is that Porsche is given the opportunity to turn the VK3001P into a VK3002. As far as dimensions go, (from Wikipedia) the 3001P was 6.58 m long, 3.8 m wide, and 3.05 m tall. The Panther was 6.87 m, 3.27 m, and 2.99 m respectively, so they're quite comparable, and the former is actually wider and taller. As far as weight goes, the new engine and gun would increase it, but there would also be the countervailing factor that the thickness of the armor can be decreased when it's sloped. I think in the end the result would be a tank weighing over 30 tons but still several less than the OTL Panther and far more reliable and less complex.
 
seems overly complex, as much or maybe even more so than the complex (and thus hard to mass produce) tanks the Germans actually put into the field. Not being an engineer I am just going with my gut on this, but it doesn't seem to help the Germans much other than it gets a better tank on the battlefield a year sooner than otherwise
 
I would think it would be possible to use a different engine, perhaps the one the OTL Panther used. For the gun, it wouldn't have to have the 8.8, just the 75mm L70, which weighed less.

You had many options.

Porsche used two of his Type 100, 10-cylinder 210hp air cooled engines.

could have used
the Tatra 103 V12 diesel, as used in the 234 armored car. Also aircooled, but slightly more reliable. Postwar that engine powered Czech trucks, but was run at lower RPM(180hp) where it was very reliable
 
seems overly complex, as much or maybe even more so than the complex (and thus hard to mass produce) tanks the Germans actually put into the field. Not being an engineer I am just going with my gut on this, but it doesn't seem to help the Germans much other than it gets a better tank on the battlefield a year sooner than otherwise

Well, it's true the VK3001P had some problems, but they were mainly with the engine. It didn't use the interleaved road wheels which were such a maintenance nightmare with the Panther and others, and the suspension was good and later worked with heavier vehicles. Here, it is supposed that as part of development the engine is replaced.

You had many options.

Porsche used two of his Type 100, 10-cylinder 210hp air cooled engines.

could have used
the Tatra 103 V12 diesel, as used in the 234 armored car. Also aircooled, but slightly more reliable. Postwar that engine powered Czech trucks, but was run at lower RPM(180hp) where it was very reliable

Interesting. I know Hitler wanted the Panther to have a diesel engine, which was prevented from happening by the way it was rushed into service. With introduction set for 1944 perhaps a new one could even be developed and produced.
 
Any other thoughts? What would the effect of substantially more Pz IVs in 1943 be? Would Kursk happen earlier? And of course, how would a reliable Panther (there would probably be more than OTL as well because each uses fewer materials) effect the course of events in 1944?
 
Any other thoughts? What would the effect of substantially more Pz IVs in 1943 be? Would Kursk happen earlier? And of course, how would a reliable Panther (there would probably be more than OTL as well because each uses fewer materials) effect the course of events in 1944?

Kursk may actually be a success if it happens early enough, one of the main issues (And there were many) was that Hitler wanted Panthers and Tigers at the front. Now while unleashing animals like that on the Russians is a great idea, sending tanks with those names is not.
 
Kursk may actually be a success if it happens early enough, one of the main issues (And there were many) was that Hitler wanted Panthers and Tigers at the front. Now while unleashing animals like that on the Russians is a great idea, sending tanks with those names is not.

That would certainly produce major butterflies for at least the rest of 1943. If the Soviet offensives in Ukraine gain less ground than OTL, (although there's no way they could actually be stopped) than when 1944 rolls around perhaps the STAVKA would decide to keep its main focus in the south rather than against AGC in Belarussia.
 
The earlier Kursk battle is a sword that cuts both ways - both defender and attacker have less time to prepare for the job. Attacking Soviets where they expected it puts the wrenches on German gears - part of a successful attack is to make the said attack where the defender is not expecting it. Plus, Germans wanted to make double envelopment against a vary defender not long after they did lost numbers (of units/tanks/artillery/aircraft) to pull it of.
 

Deleted member 1487

The earlier Kursk battle is a sword that cuts both ways - both defender and attacker have less time to prepare for the job. Attacking Soviets where they expected it puts the wrenches on German gears - part of a successful attack is to make the said attack where the defender is not expecting it. Plus, Germans wanted to make double envelopment against a vary defender not long after they did lost numbers (of units/tanks/artillery/aircraft) to pull it of.
Agreed, the Soviets have a pretty strong defensive establishment by mid-May 1943, while the Germans were significantly weaker than they were in June or July. Really the best option for the Germans was no offensive in 1943, just fortifying Orel and Kharkov-Belgorod and bleeding Soviet attacks; Pz IVs and the variety of big gun AFVs would be ideal in those situations.
 
At work.

Would just quickly throw my referances to a possible 'early' development of the GT 101 series of turbine engines to work out the kinks of Professor Porches machine. :)
 

Redbeard

Banned
It appears like the underlying assumption is that the Panther was relatively expensive. but at according to WiKi a Panther cost 117.100 RM and a Pz IV 103.462 RM (and a Tiger 280.000 RM). To me the Panther looks like extremely cost effective.

Its main problem IMHO was it being rushed into service and the first versions so rather unreliable. The Vk 3001P would appear to be no better in this aspect.
 

Deleted member 1487

It appears like the underlying assumption is that the Panther was relatively expensive. but at according to WiKi a Panther cost 117.100 RM and a Pz IV 103.462 RM (and a Tiger 280.000 RM). To me the Panther looks like extremely cost effective.

Its main problem IMHO was it being rushed into service and the first versions so rather unreliable. The Vk 3001P would appear to be no better in this aspect.
Remember that it was Nazi Germany, a dictatorship, that set the prices they wanted to pay. IIRC both the Pz IV and V prices did not include the gun, optics, or radio either.
Using Nazi price data is not much better than using USSR price data for tank production.

As to the rushed into service part and the VK3001P being no better, I'd only partially agree; the rushed part is true, the VK3001P would have to be redesigned to take a non-electric engine, which could screw it up, but the less complicated suspension system is a mark in its favor. The big problem is going to be increasing the turret ring to take the long 75mm gun and not having sloped armor (no better than the late model Pz IVs) or wide tracks.
 

Redbeard

Banned
Remember that it was Nazi Germany, a dictatorship, that set the prices they wanted to pay. IIRC both the Pz IV and V prices did not include the gun, optics, or radio either.
Using Nazi price data is not much better than using USSR price data for tank production.

As to the rushed into service part and the VK3001P being no better, I'd only partially agree; the rushed part is true, the VK3001P would have to be redesigned to take a non-electric engine, which could screw it up, but the less complicated suspension system is a mark in its favor. The big problem is going to be increasing the turret ring to take the long 75mm gun and not having sloped armor (no better than the late model Pz IVs) or wide tracks.

The value of a RM indeed was an artificial creation, and so it is difficult to use as an expression of the real cost of something for society, but it still quite well express the comparative cost of two pieces of equipment.
 

Deleted member 1487

The value of a RM indeed was an artificial creation, and so it is difficult to use as an expression of the real cost of something for society, but it still quite well express the comparative cost of two pieces of equipment.
I'm just saying in terms of price fixing that the Reich did and the way that contracting was done earlier in the war (cost plus instead of later war fixed price multi-year contracts) when the Pz IV price was from (I've seen this comparison and price quote several times before) its not really necessarily a fair comparison unless we can find out how each price was set in terms of the contract; comparing a fixed price contract to a cost-plus isn't a fair comparison in terms of actual cost. Given the way the Pz IV was though of, it was supposed to be phased out in 1942 or '43, so they were IIRC doing cost plus contracts to buy stuff for it until they could mass order Panthers. When they were able to order Panthers they did it en masse, rather than in batches like they had done for Pz IVs until later in the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germa...icle_production_during_World_War_II#Panzer_IV
If you look at Pz IV production it stagnated in 1940-41, doubled in 1942, and then more than tripled in 1943 as they realized they couldn't just buy a few hundred a year to get by until the model was replaced.
 
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