VK30.01 vs. Panther

[Deleted member 1487]

What would have been more valuable to Germany the VK30.01 project coming to fruition in 1942 or waiting for the Panther in mid-1943? Keep in mind too that the Panther didn't becoming acceptably reliable until Spring 1944 with the AusF G. I know AdA did a similar thread on this already:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=224294

I'm specifically looking for arguments about what was a better option in the long run vis-a-vis the Panther and VK30.01H. With the Panther that's OTL option: keep the Pz IV around and upgrade it continuously and wait for the Pz V to come into service, in fact delaying Kursk to get even early unreliable versions into action after having a failed series starting in January 1943 that doesn't work even minimally until about June-July or foregoing to Panther until later and replacing the Pz IV in 1942 with a larger version with better upgrade potential? Production of Pz IVs is going to drop off over the course of 1942, which will mean an overall deficit vs. OTL in 1942 of Panzers, but a fully recovery if not even more than IOTL in 1943 due to not having two different models in production with the OTL Pz IV and V, but rather just the VK30.01 in service mounting at first the same gun as the Pz IV and later (Spring 1943) the Pz V's long 75mm cannon. The OTL Panther comes later in limited numbers in 1944 when the OTL AusF G is ready. Tiger production in unaffected.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/heu.htm
The OTL work on the prototype chassis indicated that it would be mechanically reliable in 1942.


The VK30.01 would have been available in late 1942 probably mounting the same gun as the Pz IV, the 75mm L48, and replace the Pz IV in production in that year (only 992 Pz IV chassis were produced the entire year). The Nibelungenwerke in Austria would probably have tooled for the VK30.01 instead of the Pz IV then, which caused Pz IV production to sky rocket to over 3000 units in 1943. It would also replace the Panther in terms of production, so the OTL combined over 5,600 chassis would have likely been VK 30.01s instead.
http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/VK_30.01_(H)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_armored_fighting_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II

Let's assume its the VK30.01H version, so it ends up looking like a Pz IV, but at 35 tons. It will be able to be upgraded to the Panther's 75mm L70 gun in 1943.

http://1940lafrancecontinue.org/

 

[The Yogi]

Love the pictures! I have an AH project of my own involving a 35 ton panzer, wonder if I might use them for that?

Hmmm... up until the 75L70 gets mounted I do not see this changing much for the Germans... having a heavier and (I assume) more thickly armoured tank than the Pz IV but with the same gun and in somewhat smaller numbers during 1942 should be no great difference from OTL. But instead having more of them in 1943 and from july with L70s...

You know, that might just make a world of difference. To begin with, there would have been no need to delay Zitadelle. But regardless of that, the upgunning of Pz-IVs went rather quickly, didn't it? There are going to be a whole lot of 75L70 tank guns on proven, reliable chassis in late 1943-early 1944. OK, they are not going to be as well protected as the Panther, but quantity has a quality all of its own, to quote Stalin.

It's not going to change the outcome of the war. But the Soviet tank forces are going to have an even more bitter time until the end.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Love the pictures! I have an AH project of my own involving a 35 ton panzer, wonder if I might use them for that?

They aren't mine, so perhaps contact the people at the link above them to ask permission. If you're just posting on this board you don't have to AFAIK, so go for it.

Also these:
http://moderndrawings.jexiste.be/WW...s/1-Germany/02-mPanzers/Others/VK-3001(H).htm

http://moderndrawings.jexiste.be/WW...-Germany/02-mPanzers/Others/Files/VK.3001.htm

Hmmm... up until the 75L70 gets mounted I do not see this changing much for the Germans... having a heavier and (I assume) more thickly armoured tank than the Pz IV but with the same gun and in somewhat smaller numbers during 1942 should be no great difference from OTL. But instead having more of them in 1943 and from july with L70s...

You know, that might just make a world of difference. To begin with, there would have been no need to delay Zitadelle. But regardless of that, the upgunning of Pz-IVs went rather quickly, didn't it? There are going to be a whole lot of 75L70 tank guns on proven, reliable chassis in late 1943-early 1944. OK, they are not going to be as well protected as the Panther, but quantity has a quality all of its own, to quote Stalin.

It's not going to change the outcome of the war. But the Soviet tank forces are going to have an even more bitter time until the end.

One of the biggest issues in 1943 was the diversity of chassis running around and the lack of numbers; reducing the number of chassis out there and boosting numbers, while having them be reliable and maneuverable, both serious issues with the Panther in 1943 and even later, will be a big difference from OTL. Plus by 1944 there will be an even bigger boost by having only one chassis with minor Panther and Tiger production to support them, plus less losses from having the weaker Pz IVs as the most produced turreted vehicle in service. Less losses to mechanical troubles, while more casualties to the enemy due to having more cannons in the field operating and maneuvering. On the defensive having a mobile ambushing force that doesn't have the limitations of the Pz IV in terms of armor and cannon power or the weight/reliability issues of the Panther make the VK30.01 more useful during the critical moments of 1943 and 44.

Perhaps the Soviets don't end the war as far West, which perhaps changes the way the Allies feel about letting the Soviets have as much control in post-war Europe, regardless of Tehran or Yalta (or in fact changes the agreements by the time of Yalta).

Edit:
Also no Guderian Ente nor Jagdpanther. Instead you have the TD pictured in the bottom of the OP. 88mm 'short' or long. Plus you have an excellent weapon carried for heavier mounts, including a 105mm AT gun or a 150mm infantry support weapon. Save the bigger chassis for turreted vehicles and use the bigger VK30.01 chassis, which IIRC was the basis for the Panther IOTL, so had the same size and potential weight tolerance of the 45 ton Panther, as a special weapon carrier as needed. Its cheaper and easier to use than wasting a Panther or Tiger chassis for the role.

 

[The Yogi]

BTW, wouldn't this tank have been able to turret-mount the 88L56? IF so, the 75L70 might never have been developed and the VK30 simply upgunned with an 88 in 1942...

Going slightly more ASB-ish, suppose Guderian draws the logical conclusion of realizing the need for 75mm guns for infantry support and long guns for anti-tank work and designs a bigger tank similar to the VK30 with a medium-length 75mm so that it replaces not only the Pz IV from the outset, but also the Pz III.

What would it change?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Going slightly more ASB-ish, suppose Guderian draws the logical conclusion of realizing the need for 75mm guns for infantry support and long guns for anti-tank work and designs a bigger tank similar to the VK30 with a medium-length 75mm so that it replaces not only the Pz IV from the outset, but also the Pz III.

What would it change?

I did a thread about the Pz IV being the sole production Panzer from 1938 on, so no Pz III due to its initial transmission issues. That would have been ideal, especially as Germany had developed a L40 75mm cannon for a turreted vehicle in 1934; in that scenario it is tested in combat in 1940 and mass produced for the 1941 invasion of Russia. So the Pz IVF2 pretty much exists from late 1940 on and it means a massive boon for Germany throughout the rest of the war, pretty much hobbling the Soviets from 1941 on:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=292512

 

[Deleted member 1487]

BTW, wouldn't this tank have been able to turret-mount the 88L56? IF so, the 75L70 might never have been developed and the VK30 simply upgunned with an 88 in 1942...

I'm not sure. It would need a whole new turret and the Tiger was already on deck to use it as a breakthrough weapon. This Panzer wouldn't be able to do the breakthrough task as well and the 75mm long was better at tank killing. It also requires less development work to make a turret for it.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Well, apparently I was off about my estimation of when these tanks would be available. The first prototypes were ready in March 1941, rather than 1942 as I had thought. If they hadn't converted those into the Steuer Emil TDs, then the VK30.01 could have been feasibly available by Spring 1942 with the short barrel 105mm L24 cannon and phased out the Pz IV by this date. Over 1942 it could easily adapt to the 75mm L43 or 48 without much changes to the basic turret and chassis. From there if they adopt the Panther turret minus some armor, which IIRC was available by late 1942, the basic chassis could handle the 75mm long easily. The Panther was longer due to sloped armor and only slightly wider IIRC due to wider tracks, but the basic chassis was about the same width, so the Panther turret could be handled without issue.

So by late 1942 we could have the heavy AT version of the VK30.01 entering service. By the time of Kursk it can be launched in June instead of July. The Elefants were ready by May and there weren't that many more Tigers ready by July (60):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerkampfwagen_VI_Tiger

So the production path for the VK30.01 is grooved by 1943 very well if it is able to be phased in by March 1942, completely replacing the Pz IV at the cost of probably around 2-300 Panzers in 1942***. By 1943 that ground is well made up over OTL due to the VK3001 being cheaper and easier to produce then the Panther AND not having mechanical issues that seriously delayed its introduction and cut back production. Without the Pz IV or Panther in service and having larger economies of scale due to focusing on one chassis, the VK3001 would more than make up for the lower armor by its offensive maneuverability and long range killing power thanks to adopting the 75mm long. Kursk is launched in late May or early/mid June has less defensive power, while the Germans are slightly weaker in terms of Tigers, but much stronger than IOTL thanks to having many more upgunned VK3001s than there were functional Panthers in July; not only that, but the more heavily armored VK3001s even with L48 75s would survive easier in that battle and there would be more of than than IOTL, which simplifies supply due to having the one type even if it filled multiple roles.

While I doubt Kursk succeeds even with an early launch date, the combination of that and the greater number of better Panzers would have a serious impact on Soviet armor in the later stages of Citadel and the Soviet counter offensives; it might let the Germans hold the field longer and either blow up or recover more armor, which denies it to the Soviets, who got to repair a lot of armor post-battle. Having hundreds if not over 1000 75mm long armed Panzers at Kursk and in the follow up engagements has a serious impact on Soviet armor reserves, which may enable to Germans to prevent the major collapse of the East Front after Kursk and allow a stabilization on the Dniepr.

***Edit:
reading about the history of the Panther, it seems that there were delays in even getting the non-functional version produced in January 1943; delivers were supposed to start in late 1942; that means that even if Pz IV production is phased out early in 1942 in favor of the VK3001, then all the Panther producers that were waiting for the Panther to be designed and cleared for production as well as the special machine tools the Panther required that standard panzer layouts did not, then the VK3001 could have been in much wider production than the Pz IV was IOTL in 1942; not only that but given that Panther production was delayed for variety of reasons that would not apply to the VK3001, then the VK3001 would actually have a higher finished output in 1942 than the Pz IV did IOTL. That means in fact that phasing out the Pz IV and not building the Panther until later if at all would actually result in several hundred more panzers being produced in 1942 than IOTL; by 1943 in fact production would be significantly higher than the 5,600 Pz IV and Pz Vs produced in 1943 IOTL; rather we are looking at closer to 7-8,000 units altogether if not even more. That's on top of the expanded over all production in 1942.

Clearly production of the VK3001 despite its lower overall quality than the Panther is a much better option by early 1942. Its better than the Pz IV, which was essentially Germany's MBT from 1943 onward, while much more reliable and available than the Panther could ever hope to be. Plus being able to mount the 75mm long and get it into service by late 1942-January 1943 would mean that it is a serious improvement over what was available for defensive purposes throughout 1943-44, especially as it would be available to mount heavy AT weapons for a Panzerjäger of superior quality to the PzJ IV, StuG, Hetzer, and arguably due to reliability and early availability the Jagdpanther. Not breaking down and being lost to non-combat causes would seriously help keep losses down too, while a Bergepanzer version has a more powerful engine for use in recovering things like a broken down Tiger much easier than the smaller Bergepanzer IV.

 

[AdA]

Hi Wiking
What killed the OTL VK30.01(H) was the slow development cycle. Started by Henschel in September 1938, it went on trials in early 1940, and eight trial models were ordered. The first of these was only complete in March 1941, and the next two only in October. In May it had already been decided to have it canceled and move to a heavier 36.01 version.
To make the tank relevant, the development cycle must be shorter, allowing for a decision to build in 1940, and series production in early 1941, making it the German MBT for the 1942 battles. The original version was meant to be able to mount a 105L28 gun, that would give it good AT capability (the leFH18 was used for AT workOTL.
The simplest POD is to reverse the May decision to make it bigger, allowing for service entry in late 1941 at which time arming it with the 75L43, or developing optimised AT ammo for the 105L28, would have been a very obvious option.
By late 1942 you could have a very substantial force in the field, and probably a derailed Tiger program, leading the Germans to abandon their Hgh/Low approach to tanks in favour of a US style concentration on a single decent medium.

 

[Somua2]

Intrigued by the 1940 Relatively Light Version

I'd like to think a tank of that era in trials during early 1940 could be in production by early 1941. How heavy a tank was it in early 1940? Could you share its intended armament at that point (I imagine the 105mm was for heavy support while either the L24 or L43 was for a standard version) and armor?

One last thing. In your opinion was it of a size and configuration that a later war sloped armor version would have been practical?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I'd like to think a tank of that era in trials during early 1940 could be in production by early 1941. How heavy a tank was it in early 1940? Could you share its intended armament at that point (I imagine the 105mm was for heavy support while either the L24 or L43 was for a standard version) and armor?

One last thing. In your opinion was it of a size and configuration that a later war sloped armor version would have been practical?

AFAIK the tank was planned on being 32 tons, but could probably end up with 35 and not have too many issues if any at all. The two armaments that I'm aware of are the 75mm L24 or the 105mm L24. The turret for the 75mm L24 would be modified to take the L43 and late L48 without much issue and no change in turret ring AFAIK. I linked in the OP to information about it on the Achtung Panzer! website.

I don't think the sloped armor version would have been possible without a major redesign.

Hi Wiking
What killed the OTL VK30.01(H) was the slow development cycle. Started by Henschel in September 1938, it went on trials in early 1940, and eight trial models were ordered. The first of these was only complete in March 1941, and the next two only in October. In May it had already been decided to have it canceled and move to a heavier 36.01 version.
To make the tank relevant, the development cycle must be shorter, allowing for a decision to build in 1940, and series production in early 1941, making it the German MBT for the 1942 battles. The original version was meant to be able to mount a 105L28 gun, that would give it good AT capability (the leFH18 was used for AT workOTL.
The simplest POD is to reverse the May decision to make it bigger, allowing for service entry in late 1941 at which time arming it with the 75L43, or developing optimised AT ammo for the 105L28, would have been a very obvious option.
By late 1942 you could have a very substantial force in the field, and probably a derailed Tiger program, leading the Germans to abandon their Hgh/Low approach to tanks in favour of a US style concentration on a single decent medium.

AFAIK the main reason for that slow development was the lacking of funding or major interest in the program by the army until Barbarossa demonstrated the need for something better, then things got done quickly. I agree with your assessment, but wonder about the Tiger, that program was started in May 1941 IIRC, which effectively killed the VK36.01 program; I think you'd need to keep both the VK30.01 and VK36.01 as a pair, due to the design of both together resulting in common parts. Have the VK30 with the long 75mm by 1943 (the L43/8 by early 1942) and the VK36 with the 88mm by mid-1942 would be an excellent combination and could be built in far greater numbers than the OTL Pz IV, Tiger, Panther, Tiger II option. Modified uparmored versions were certainly possible IMHO, though to a point; I think the VK30 is going to top out aroud 37-38 tons, while the VK36 would stop around 44-45 tons.

 

[miketr]

My only comment is the Germans showed very little willingness to phase out old designs and loved to specialize. Might we instead just see a mess of having MK III, IV, VK3001H, Panther and Tiger with even worse production numbers?

Michael

 

[AdA]

I'd like to think a tank of that era in trials during early 1940 could be in production by early 1941. How heavy a tank was it in early 1940? Could you share its intended armament at that point (I imagine the 105mm was for heavy support while either the L24 or L43 was for a standard version) and armor?

One last thing. In your opinion was it of a size and configuration that a later war sloped armor version would have been practical?

TheT34, of course.like the VK 30.01 it originated from a may 38 requirement. The A20 prototype was ready in summer 39, was selected in August 39, the first two prototypes of the definitive T34 version entered trials in January 1940 and the tank was in production that year. 115 were made in 1940 and in 1941 2800 were produced, with an invasion being a considerable nuisance from that summer...

 

[miketr]

Where are people getting production numbers for the specific German factories?

THANKS in advance.

Michael

 

[AdA]

AFAIK the tank was planned on being 32 tons, but could probably end up with 35 and not have too many issues if any at all. The two armaments that I'm aware of are the 75mm L24 or the 105mm L24. The turret for the 75mm L24 would be modified to take the L43 and late L48 without much issue and no change in turret ring AFAIK. I linked in the OP to information about it on the Achtung Panzer! website.

I don't think the sloped armor version would have been possible without a major redesign.



AFAIK the main reason for that slow development was the lacking of funding or major interest in the program by the army until Barbarossa demonstrated the need for something better, then things got done quickly. I agree with your assessment, but wonder about the Tiger, that program was started in May 1941 IIRC, which effectively killed the VK36.01 program; I think you'd need to keep both the VK30.01 and VK36.01 as a pair, due to the design of both together resulting in common parts. Have the VK30 with the long 75mm by 1943 (the L43/8 by early 1942) and the VK36 with the 88mm by mid-1942 would be an excellent combination and could be built in far greater numbers than the OTL Pz IV, Tiger, Panther, Tiger II option. Modified uparmored versions were certainly possible IMHO, though to a point; I think the VK30 is going to top out aroud 37-38 tons, while the VK36 would stop around 44-45 tons.

The guys at the la France continue project, which did a lot of professional research (unlike you and me, they're in it for the money) follow a similar line. The ATL VK36.01 would probably in this scenario be an evolution of the 30.01 rather than a different project.

 

[AdA]

Development cycle

It has just occurred to me,looking at the leisure pace of VK30.01 development, that it could have been perceived more as technology demonstrator for Henschel than seriously intended for production. It introduced interleaved suspension, explored bigger dimensions and weights and the possibility of using the leFH18 105mm as a main armament.
After the BoF Germany pretty much expected the war with Russia to be won in 1941 with existing weapons, and while the German industry was failing to get organised to quickly increase production levels, it was also falling behind in terms of development pace.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

It has just occurred to me,looking at the leisure pace of VK30.01 development, that it could have been perceived more as technology demonstrator for Henschel than seriously intended for production. It introduced interleaved suspension, explored bigger dimensions and weights and the possibility of using the leFH18 105mm as a main armament.
After the BoF Germany pretty much expected the war with Russia to be won in 1941 with existing weapons, and while the German industry was failing to get organised to quickly increase production levels, it was also falling behind in terms of development pace.

Very true. Its hard to get the VK series into production due to the political atmosphere, just as altering things to get the VK will probably prevent the invasion of the USSR! The thought that the Panther would be ready by late 1942 prejudiced the VK3001 projection in favor of the 3002 that became the overweight Panther. So I think someone would need to be realistic with Hitler about the overweight Panther and Tiger's development cycle timeline to get a regular weight VK3002 in production. In fact a Panther that stuck t the original design would basically be a VK3001 with sloped armor and would have been an excellent tank, pretty much a 1940s version of the Leopard 1, which was originally 40 tons.

We should do a thread or turn this one into what if the original VK3002 spec was stuck to; in that case it would be in production by late 1942 without the mechanical issues of the up-weighted and -gunned OTL Panther; it would have taken the L48 75 and been 35 tons, only to be upgraded to probably around 37-8 tons in early 1943 with the 75mm L70 main gun. That's not a bad option either and probably a good 'split the difference' solution. A lighter Panther in late (October-November) 1942 that is later uparmored and gunned by early 1943 with the OTL Panther turret (designed for the VK3601 or VK4501 originally) would have been ideal and a nice balance between technological superiority, numbers, timeliness, and mechanical reliability. It could phase out the Pz IV chassis in 1942 if ready by late 1942 and have been the MBT that should have been.

 

[Somua2]

Good Idea

We should do a thread or turn this one into what if the original VK3002 spec was stuck to; in that case it would be in production by late 1942 without the mechanical issues of the up-weighted and -gunned OTL Panther; it would have taken the L48 75 and been 35 tons, only to be upgraded to probably around 37-8 tons in early 1943 with the 75mm L70 main gun. That's not a bad option either and probably a good 'split the difference' solution. A lighter Panther in late (October-November) 1942 that is later uparmored and gunned by early 1943 with the OTL Panther turret (designed for the VK3601 or VK4501 originally) would have been ideal and a nice balance between technological superiority, numbers, timeliness, and mechanical reliability. It could phase out the Pz IV chassis in 1942 if ready by late 1942 and have been the MBT that should have been.

I wouldn't want this thread hijacked, but I would enjoy such a new thread.