VK20 series tanks instead of Panther

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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Thanks for the link.
The Flak L/60 fired a 6.5 kg shell at 860 m/s, compared with KwK 40 L48 firing the 6.8 kg AP shot at 790 m/s. Back of the envelope calculation shows that L69 will fire the 6.8 kg shot at 840 m/s, on same muzzle energy. The Flak gained high MV due it's long barrel, the weight of propellant was actually a tad less vs. the KwK 40 firing the AP shot (2.39 vs. 2.50 kg). Perhaps the Flak-derived gun should've received muzzle barrel, and another 300-500 g of propellant, so 890-900 m/s could be reached? The Panther's gun used 4 kg of propellant for the APCBC-HE projectile (7.2 kg at 935 m/s), and 3.3 kg for the APCR.

This is going around in a circle again, you should check out the Mehrzweckpanzer thread I referenced in OP. The problem with the VK30 design is that there was none ready for production until 1943 and only then with a rushed and mechanically compromised design, aka the OTL Panther, which was just an upscaled VK2401.
The only two companies that were already working on a 30 ton chassis were Porsche and Henschel, neither of whom had tested prototypes much during 1941 and unavailable to develop a 30 ton design, because both were contracted for the VK4501 in May 1941, aka the Tiger I. Porsche's design was a mess and Henschel developed theirs into the Tiger I.
Meanwhile that left the three VK2001 designs from Daimler Benz, Krupp, and MAN. Krupp dropped out because they didn't want to rush a 30 ton design and had to scrap their 20 ton chassis work, plus was ordered to continue on with Panzer IV production. Daimler and MAN both produced the historical VK3002 designs, of course the MAN design became the Panther with all of it's problems due to being a rush job and too heavy for what the design was thanks to the L70 75mm guns, 80mm frontal armor Hitler ordered, and off the shelf turret designed for the VK3601 project and turned out to be flawed.

There we go - if we still allow for the costumers and engineers to proceed with a complicated and ever balooning design, it will be ready for production too late, and it would've take another year to perfect the design enough to be a really viable war machine. There is plenty of British, French and Soviet tanks with all-rear powerpack the Germans knew about, even before ww2 started, so apply the KISS principle ruthlesly. Don't go overboard with interleaved wheels, just take a page from Pz-III and increase the size & strength of suspension members for greater weight. Or copy the KV suspension/trackwork. Let DB and MAN each come out with such tank prototype(s), then choose what is better. In the meantime, demand from Krupp to came out with sloped front plate for Pz-IV

Even if they did the 30-35 ton medium right, it would not get into production until 1943 and service until mid-1943, by which time Panzer IV production would be locked in because this 'light' Panther would take time to develop right. It would mean no more than 60mm frontal armor sloped to the same level as the VK2401, i.e. only 10mm better, plus an off the shelf heavy turret with huge gun. It would probably still balloon in weight to at least 38 tons, just like how the Tiger I was only supposed to be 45 tons and jumped to 55 in reality. To get the Comet-like vehicle you're really looking at the VK2401, which jumped up to 28 tons in practice and with a 'magnum' 75mm gun would probably get closer to 30 tons. Historically the Panzer IV was able to up-weight 10 tons from 15t-25t in the final version.

Hopefully both the Heer and designers have learned something from Tiger's weight grow, and apply that knowledge. Like that simplicity pays off. So when 30-35 ton tank is asked for, came out with a 30-35 ton tank. I don't thin that people that designed Pershing or IS tanks were that smarter than what Germany had.

That brings us back to the entire point of this thread; the VK20 series was basically ready for production in mid-1942 unlike the VK3002 series. It just needed to adjust the chassis design to add slope and widen the tracts, but otherwise it still would use the existing Panzer IV turret, which could handle up to a 75mm L48.

As seen it the quoted paragraph - no, it was not ready for production in mid 1942.

When the time game to bump up to an L60 or 70 75mm they could use design a turret like the Schmalturm with less armor and still use the existing turret ring, just have a more powerful motor to traverse the turret, which would be somewhat taller than the Pz IV model. Being ready for production in mid-1942 has the huge benefit of being able to phase out the Pz IV from production and take over some of the Pz II production as the facilities retooled to build heavier tanks. Even the existing Pz III facilities could be shifted over, because they were already set up for 20+ ton AFV production, but would need major upgrades to switch to a 30+ ton design. Retooling them would be a lot easier, which allows for more of a shift to a single chassis to get economies of scale and simplify POL and training (which they wanted to do historically with the PZ III/IV design that never really worked). Plus the bigger design was able to have upgrades into 1944 and stay competitive unlike the Pz III and IV. Plus it buys time for a 45-50 tons design to get properly designed and tested from scratch with a high powered cannon and heavier armor that would outclass the Allied 45 ton designs and be more like the Centurion. The VK20 series chassis, any of them, would have been able to mount heavier weapons than the Pz III or IV or the Geschützwagen III/IV without overburdening the chassis. So something like the Kanonenjagdpanzer or a workable Panzerjager IV/70 could actually work.

Schmallturm was not ready for production some time in 1945, so it is a long way from being worthwhile for ww2. The up-gunned and up-armored 20-ish ton tank becomes 30-ish ton tank, and the existing Pz-III facilities will not be able to handle it.
As for the 45-50 ton tank - use the KV-1 as basis, copying it as much as possible, refine when possible, stick an ever bigger gun on it. Basically, "KV-88" for early 1943. Outclassing enemy tanks is not just what the own tank is for, exactly such thinking led to the Panther.

...
It [Flak L60] was actually ready in Spring/Summer 1942, but the only turret that could take it would be the off-the-shelf VK3601/OTL Panther turret, which the shot trap gun mantel and heavy weight (too much for the early VK2401 chassis without modifications), which is why they'd need time to design the Schmalturm.

Do we know that L60 was ready in Spring/Summer 1942?
 

Deleted member 1487

Thanks for the link.
The Flak L/60 fired a 6.5 kg shell at 860 m/s, compared with KwK 40 L48 firing the 6.8 kg AP shot at 790 m/s. Back of the envelope calculation shows that L69 will fire the 6.8 kg shot at 840 m/s, on same muzzle energy. The Flak gained high MV due it's long barrel, the weight of propellant was actually a tad less vs. the KwK 40 firing the AP shot (2.39 vs. 2.50 kg). Perhaps the Flak-derived gun should've received muzzle barrel, and another 300-500 g of propellant, so 890-900 m/s could be reached? The Panther's gun used 4 kg of propellant for the APCBC-HE projectile (7.2 kg at 935 m/s), and 3.3 kg for the APCR.
The Panther had a shell that reached 1120m/s:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,5-cm-KwK_42
PzGr. 40/42
1.120 m/s

There we go - if we still allow for the costumers and engineers to proceed with a complicated and ever balooning design, it will be ready for production too late, and it would've take another year to perfect the design enough to be a really viable war machine. There is plenty of British, French and Soviet tanks with all-rear powerpack the Germans knew about, even before ww2 started, so apply the KISS principle ruthlesly. Don't go overboard with interleaved wheels, just take a page from Pz-III and increase the size & strength of suspension members for greater weight. Or copy the KV suspension/trackwork. Let DB and MAN each come out with such tank prototype(s), then choose what is better. In the meantime, demand from Krupp to came out with sloped front plate for Pz-IV
That's the thing the design was pretty much set so ballooning was not really going to happen for the VK20 series unless Hitler demands it be uparmored or gunned, which for the sake of argument it is not, due to the VK3002 series being deferred for something they could rush out the door. The Krupp and Daimler versions used leaf spring suspension, even though the Heer weapons department was demanding torsion bar suspension. You can't have a sloped armor Pz IV without retooling and pretty much creating the VK20 Krupp model, which was basically the bigger Pz IV that could handle slope.

Hopefully both the Heer and designers have learned something from Tiger's weight grow, and apply that knowledge. Like that simplicity pays off. So when 30-35 ton tank is asked for, came out with a 30-35 ton tank. I don't thin that people that designed Pershing or IS tanks were that smarter than what Germany had.
That is something that came at the exact time the Panther was being developed, so there was no ability to actually learn that lesson, as they were still in the process of learning it; Hitler never learned that lesson, hence the Tiger II, Maus, and other huge monstrosities. The issue wasn't the designers, it was the demands from Grofaz that created the overweight VK3002.

As seen it the quoted paragraph - no, it was not ready for production in mid 1942.
It had been in prototype and testing, all that would need to be done is change the chassis layout to have slope, which if ordered in late 1941 when decisions were being made about whether to continue developing the VK20 or jump up to the VK3002, would be done and ready to go by around June 1942. The suspension and parts were all designed for the right weight class and the mechanics tested; the big argument in December 1942 was the Waffenamt frustrated that the nearly complete VK20 series was being tossed out by demand of Hitler; in this scenario Hitler actually listens to the Waffenprufamt 6 and goes with the nearly complete VK20s with redesigns based off the T-34.

Schmallturm was not ready for production some time in 1945, so it is a long way from being worthwhile for ww2. The up-gunned and up-armored 20-ish ton tank becomes 30-ish ton tank, and the existing Pz-III facilities will not be able to handle it.
As for the 45-50 ton tank - use the KV-1 as basis, copying it as much as possible, refine when possible, stick an ever bigger gun on it. Basically, "KV-88" for early 1943. Outclassing enemy tanks is not just what the own tank is for, exactly such thinking led to the Panther.
The Schmalturm is something that could be ordered to try and fit a 'magnum' 75 to this ATL Panzer V; an early start is what is needed to have it ready in 1943. It wasn't ordered for design until 1943 IOTL and the reason it wasn't ready for production in 1945 had more to do with the inability to retool for it due to the war situation, rather than the design not being ready. It was ready to go in 1944, but the design work was still being done on improving the Panther chassis, initially for the Panther II and then AusF. when they realized they needed improvements now, not a perfected model later. Phasing in the heavier VK20 with nearly 30 ton weight would yes require retooling, which could be phased in over time.
The KV-1 was a mechanical mess for starters, which is why the Soviets dropped it. The Germans were advanced with their own designs and weren't about to go backwards to the KV when their own superior version was nearly ready; of course since their 45 ton design was mechanically ready for 45 tons, not the 55 tons that they dumped on it, it had kinks to be worked out, which were pretty much gone by early 1943. At 45 tons the KV-1 was dogging it.

Do we know that L60 was ready in Spring/Summer 1942?
It was in testing before the L70 was ever conceived; since it had a hard time consistently living up to the demanded armor penetration at 1.5km, they lengthened the barrel to L70. So yeah it pretty much was good to go by Summer 1942, then it's a question of production, not development.
 
The Panther had a shell that reached 1120m/s:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,5-cm-KwK_42

You will notice that I've also posted shell/shot weights. PzGr 40/42 (APCR, for the un-initiated ;) ) weighted 4.75 kg and went that fast, the 'full weight' PzGr 39/42 (APCBC-HE) did not, being at 7.2 kg.

That is something that came at the exact time the Panther was being developed, so there was no ability to actually learn that lesson, as they were still in the process of learning it; Hitler never learned that lesson, hence the Tiger II, Maus, and other huge monstrosities. The issue wasn't the designers, it was the demands from Grofaz that created the overweight VK3002.

You're right about that.

It had been in prototype and testing, all that would need to be done is change the chassis layout to have slope, which if ordered in late 1941 when decisions were being made about whether to continue developing the VK20 or jump up to the VK3002, would be done and ready to go by around June 1942. The suspension and parts were all designed for the right weight class and the mechanics tested; the big argument in December 1942 was the Waffenamt frustrated that the nearly complete VK20 series was being tossed out by demand of Hitler; in this scenario Hitler actually listens to the Waffenprufamt 6 and goes with the nearly complete VK20s with redesigns based off the T-34.

Since the proposed series was tossed out in December of 1942, then I don't think it was that good for production from mid-1942. Again - there is too much of faith that VK 20 series was that mechanically reliable in one wight class (and what class? 22, 24 or 28 tons?) and that it will receive the weight increase due to the protection and lethality upgrade without problems.
I'll state it once more - a tank that is 110% of Pz-IV still buys preciously little for the Heer from late 1942 on.

The KV-1 was a mechanical mess for starters, which is why the Soviets dropped it. The Germans were advanced with their own designs and weren't about to go backwards to the KV when their own superior version was nearly ready; of course since their 45 ton design was mechanically ready for 45 tons, not the 55 tons that they dumped on it, it had kinks to be worked out, which were pretty much gone by early 1943. At 45 tons the KV-1 was dogging it.

Don't know where to start from.
KV-1 was no more a mess in 1941 than Panther in 1943, and Soviets didn't dropped it. Myths about superior German versions are, well, myths. KV-1 never went to 55 tons ( 47 was max), you mixed it with KV-2.
Somehow we are to believe that any German project, whether real or the one in testing phase is superior than actual Soviet tank.

It was in testing before the L70 was ever conceived; since it had a hard time consistently living up to the demanded armor penetration at 1.5km, they lengthened the barrel to L70. So yeah it pretty much was good to go by Summer 1942, then it's a question of production, not development.

The L70 was not just with longer barrel, it also needed stronger breech, barrel, recoiling system to handle greater pressures & recoil - basically a whole new gun. Obviously with new ammo.
4 kg of propellant firing a 7.2 kg shot will destroy a barrel/gun designed for 2.4 kg of propellant and 6.5 kg shell.
But I can believe that L60 will be ready earlier than the new KwK 42 L70, the dots are there, connecting them was no rocket science. I'd skip the L70 all together, and go with 88mm stuff ASAP.
 

Deleted member 1487

Since the proposed series was tossed out in December of 1942, then I don't think it was that good for production from mid-1942.
December 1941, not 1942.

Again - there is too much of faith that VK 20 series was that mechanically reliable in one wight class (and what class? 22, 24 or 28 tons?) and that it will receive the weight increase due to the protection and lethality upgrade without problems.
I'll state it once more - a tank that is 110% of Pz-IV still buys preciously little for the Heer from late 1942 on.
The VK20 series was viable for the 26-28 ton weight range, every bit as much as the VK15 series (Pz III and IV) were good up to the 25 ton finals. 30 tons is definitely the end range. The basic VK20 series were anticipated to be at least 22-24 tons with the 50mm gun initially planned, so were good up to that; with the heavier 75 and sloped armor, plus increased tracks they shouldn't require much adaptation up to 26-28 tons, potentially less for the DB version due to the rear drive and lower height, resulting in lower overall weight. They'd take the existing Pz IV turret too. The result would be a LOT better than 110% of the 1943 L48 version of the PZ IV, probably over 150%. It would easily be 200% compared to the T-34/76 with the two man turret.

Don't know where to start from.
KV-1 was no more a mess in 1941 than Panther in 1943, and Soviets didn't dropped it. Myths about superior German versions are, well, myths. KV-1 never went to 55 tons ( 47 was max), you mixed it with KV-2.
Somehow we are to believe that any German project, whether real or the one in testing phase is superior than actual Soviet tank.
Sure, the KV and Panther were equally as bad at the time they were introduced; either the KV nor Panther were dropped until something better came along, in the case of the KV it was the IS-series, for the Panther it was the end of the war. I didn't say the KV was 55 tons, I said the Tiger I went from a 45 to a 55 ton design. But even at 45 tons the KV was overloaded, which is why they tried the KV-1S. That reduced the weigh to about 42.5 tons and rendered it no better than the T-34.
Plus to make the KV, an already outdated design, they'd have to reverse engineer it, which means only getting it into production by the time the Panther showed up historically or their own 30 tons designs were viable.

The L70 was not just with longer barrel, it also needed stronger breech, barrel, recoiling system to handle greater pressures & recoil - basically a whole new gun. Obviously with new ammo.
4 kg of propellant firing a 7.2 kg shot will destroy a barrel/gun designed for 2.4 kg of propellant and 6.5 kg shell.
But I can believe that L60 will be ready earlier than the new KwK 42 L70, the dots are there, connecting them was no rocket science. I'd skip the L70 all together, and go with 88mm stuff ASAP.
The L70 was not that much different as to cause a significant delay in development; yes they probably did have to strengthen parts of the entire system, but not toss out the existing design, because the KWK42 was accepted in 1942, so no more than 6 months after the L60 started testing. The ammo wasn't really new, they used the existing 75mm shell with a longer case and more propellant.
The reason the long 75 was chosen was it used an existing caliber in production, the case was easy to lengthen, plus it had higher AP value than the KWK36/88mm L56. Even Soviet testing confirmed that. The L70 75mm/KWK42 was also significantly better than the Soviet 85mm gun too at AP. The issue was it specialized in AP and was marginal for HE work. So for a MBT style design the 88 made more sense, but then you would need a chassis that is in the 45 ton range and mass produceable with working parts, so that nixes the Tiger chassis due to the final drive and the Panther chassis due to the final drive. The solution was a herring bone style drive used on the Sherman Jumbo, but I'm not sure if that was doable with German industry.
 
December 1941, not 1942.

Sorry, I've mis-read your post.

The VK20 series was viable for the 26-28 ton weight range, every bit as much as the VK15 series (Pz III and IV) were good up to the 25 ton finals. 30 tons is definitely the end range. The basic VK20 series were anticipated to be at least 22-24 tons with the 50mm gun initially planned, so were good up to that; with the heavier 75 and sloped armor, plus increased tracks they shouldn't require much adaptation up to 26-28 tons, potentially less for the DB version due to the rear drive and lower height, resulting in lower overall weight. They'd take the existing Pz IV turret too. The result would be a LOT better than 110% of the 1943 L48 version of the PZ IV, probably over 150%. It would easily be 200% compared to the T-34/76 with the two man turret.

Okay, let's say it plas that way. That means we've come with replacement for Pz-IV, not for now not built Panther.

Sure, the KV and Panther were equally as bad at the time they were introduced; either the KV nor Panther were dropped until something better came along, in the case of the KV it was the IS-series, for the Panther it was the end of the war. I didn't say the KV was 55 tons, I said the Tiger I went from a 45 to a 55 ton design. But even at 45 tons the KV was overloaded, which is why they tried the KV-1S. That reduced the weigh to about 42.5 tons and rendered it no better than the T-34.
Plus to make the KV, an already outdated design, they'd have to reverse engineer it, which means only getting it into production by the time the Panther showed up historically or their own 30 tons designs were viable.

Oh, I get it now re. 45 vs. 55 t.
KV-1 was cutting edge design in 1940/41, even more modern than T-34 that featured 2-men turret and Christy suspension.. The KV-1 was not over-loaded, KV-1S was an attempt to speed up the tank that featured the same engine like T-34. A simple "we don't want less than 70mm of armor both in front and the sides if a tank is heavier than 40 tons" order means Panther as a project is dropped as soon as drawings are prepared for it.

The L70 was not that much different as to cause a significant delay in development; yes they probably did have to strengthen parts of the entire system, but not toss out the existing design, because the KWK42 was accepted in 1942, so no more than 6 months after the L60 started testing. The ammo wasn't really new, they used the existing 75mm shell with a longer case and more propellant.

I'm not sure whether you've perused the ammo manuals available on the lexpev.ne.
The length of case is the same. The shells/shots and propelant is not. New barrel + breech + as good as new ammo = testing procedure + new production line + probably a new turret.
I'd of course love to see details of testing of L60 in AFV gun role.

The reason the long 75 was chosen was it used an existing caliber in production, the case was easy to lengthen, plus it had higher AP value than the KWK36/88mm L56. Even Soviet testing confirmed that. The L70 75mm/KWK42 was also significantly better than the Soviet 85mm gun too at AP. The issue was it specialized in AP and was marginal for HE work. So for a MBT style design the 88 made more sense, but then you would need a chassis that is in the 45 ton range and mass produceable with working parts, so that nixes the Tiger chassis due to the final drive and the Panther chassis due to the final drive. The solution was a herring bone style drive used on the Sherman Jumbo, but I'm not sure if that was doable with German industry.

The AP value went about the same above 1 km, with same type of ammo used. We can recall that Tiger have had no problems piercing any medium tank that Allies deployed anyway, while also nailing plenty of KVs and Churchills.
The KV chassis gives a fine start for the 88 mm in a rotating turret, certainly under 50 tons for total tank weight.
 

Deleted member 1487

Oh, I get it now re. 45 vs. 55 t.
KV-1 was cutting edge design in 1940/41, even more modern than T-34 that featured 2-men turret and Christy suspension.. The KV-1 was not over-loaded, KV-1S was an attempt to speed up the tank that featured the same engine like T-34. A simple "we don't want less than 70mm of armor both in front and the sides if a tank is heavier than 40 tons" order means Panther as a project is dropped as soon as drawings are prepared for it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kliment_Voroshilov_tank
The KV's strengths included armor that was impenetrable by any tank-mounted weapon then in service[7] except at point-blank range, that it had good firepower, and that it had good traction on soft ground. It also had serious flaws, all of which were rectified with the introduction of the KV-1S:[8] it was difficult to steer, the transmission (which was a twenty-year-old Caterpillar design)[9] was unreliable (and was known to have to been shifted with a hammer),[9] and the ergonomics were poor, with limited visibility and no turret basket.[10] Furthermore, at 45 tons, it was simply too heavy. This severely impacted the maneuverability, not so much in terms of maximum speed, as through inability to cross many bridges medium tanks could cross.[11] The KV outweighed most other tanks of the era, being about twice as heavy as the heaviest contemporary German tank. KVs were never equipped with a snorkelling system to ford shallow rivers, so they had to be left to travel to an adequate bridge. As applique armor and other improvements were added without increasing engine power, later models were less capable of keeping up to speed with medium tanks and had more trouble with difficult terrain. In addition, its firepower was no better than the T-34.[9] It took field reports from senior commanders "and certified heroes", who could be honest without risk of punishment, to reveal "what a dog the KV-1 really was".[9]

I'm not sure whether you've perused the ammo manuals available on the lexpev.ne.
The length of case is the same. The shells/shots and propelant is not. New barrel + breech + as good as new ammo = testing procedure + new production line + probably a new turret.
I'd of course love to see details of testing of L60 in AFV gun role.
Not sure why you think they were the same length, the shells of the L70 were longer than the L48:
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/324404-why-were-the-pak40-shells-so-huge/
On wikipedia they say shell height, which appears to be the same, but that is different than length.

The AP value went about the same above 1 km, with same type of ammo used. We can recall that Tiger have had no problems piercing any medium tank that Allies deployed anyway, while also nailing plenty of KVs and Churchills.
The KV chassis gives a fine start for the 88 mm in a rotating turret, certainly under 50 tons for total tank weight.
Not AFAIK, the muzzle velocity of the long 75 was higher:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_KwK_42#Penetration_comparison
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_KwK_36#Penetration_comparison
The APCR for the long 75 was somewhat better at 1.5-2km and was lighter than the KWK36. But had worse HE ability.
 

:) If the 45 ton tank is too heavy, then any tank of 45 tons and heavier is too heavy. Whether Panther, Centurion or IS-2. We also know that all of heavy tanks were inable to keep pace with good meadium tanks, so I'm not sure why is that a problem just for the KV. List of automotive problems was solved, and I've suggested the weapon upgrade.

Not sure why you think they were the same length, the shells of the L70 were longer than the L48:
https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/324404-why-were-the-pak40-shells-so-huge/
On wikipedia they say shell height, which appears to be the same, but that is different than length.

Cartrige case for the L60 and L70 was of the same length, 640 mm.

Not AFAIK, the muzzle velocity of the long 75 was higher:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_KwK_42#Penetration_comparison
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_KwK_36#Penetration_comparison
The APCR for the long 75 was somewhat better at 1.5-2km and was lighter than the KWK36. But had worse HE ability.

Penetration depends both on weight and on velocity. Advantage of the long 75 is/was a moot point - both guns were more than capable to pierce Allied armor under 1500m. Lighter 75 mm shot will probably experience more of the drift in case of wind, though.
 

Deleted member 1487

:) If the 45 ton tank is too heavy, then any tank of 45 tons and heavier is too heavy. Whether Panther, Centurion or IS-2. We also know that all of heavy tanks were inable to keep pace with good meadium tanks, so I'm not sure why is that a problem just for the KV. List of automotive problems was solved, and I've suggested the weapon upgrade.
It isn't an issue of the 45 ton designs being too heavy, it was that the KV-1 was a poor design replaced by something better; the Soviets didn't have great designs in 1941. People look at the late war/post-war Soviet designs and see quality vehicles and project that back on the first models in 1941, assuming that the T-34 41 was as good as the 1945 variant because they gave the Germans fits and they copied the armor layout, but don't really get that just because they had better armor and guns that they were any better than the British and French heavies of 1940 just because the USSR didn't get totally crushed; that was a factor of strategic depth, not the quality of their AFVs. Even the Soviets rated the T-34/76 of 1943 as worse than the Panzer IV of 1943, which led to the ultimate T-34, the 1944 /85, that fixed the problems of the T-34, including the suspension. Plus the KV was finally discontinued for something much better, the IS series.

The 45 ton and up tanks were great vehicles once they had time to develop or be replaced by new designs influenced by experience with the flawed early war models. Take the Centurion and compare that to even the Comet. Or the IS-2 to the KV-1. I imagine the E-50 would have improved on the Panther quite a bit.

Cartrige case for the L60 and L70 was of the same length, 640 mm.
Ah, so perhaps they did the L48 variation of having the 'coke bottle' layout.

Penetration depends both on weight and on velocity. Advantage of the long 75 is/was a moot point - both guns were more than capable to pierce Allied armor under 1500m. Lighter 75 mm shot will probably experience more of the drift in case of wind, though.
Sure...but the 75 was significantly lighter, which is important for keeping the weight of the AFV down. The velocity of the 75 kept it from being too influenced by weather conditions.
 
If there is no issue of the tanks of 45 tons being too heavy, why citing Wikipedia article claiming that?
KV-1 was not a poor design.In the same vein, we can argue that Tiger and Panther were poor designs.
Also - I'm not 'people'. Sudden appearance of T-34s and KVs prompted Germans to introduce both Tiger and Panther, plus other hosts of both practical and unpractical AFVs - that was actually done, it is not claimed by 'people' or myself.


...
The 45 ton and up tanks were great vehicles once they had time to develop or be replaced by new designs influenced by experience with the flawed early war models. Take the Centurion and compare that to even the Comet. Or the IS-2 to the KV-1. I imagine the E-50 would have improved on the Panther quite a bit.

Germans needed a better tank pronto, not in 1945, and that a tank that can do anything. Going out with a tank that has a complicated layout, big weight and size, a brand new (almost single-purpose) gun costs them how much vs. a tank with simple layout, 10 tons less, smaller hull size, existing gun? Six to 12 months, in a war where weeks if not days mattered.

Neither Comet nor KV were flawed.

Ah, so perhaps they did the L48 variation of having the 'coke bottle' layout.

picture
L48 was a development of L43, though.

Sure...but the 75 was significantly lighter, which is important for keeping the weight of the AFV down. The velocity of the 75 kept it from being too influenced by weather conditions.

Barrel life was sacrificed to gain light weight. 2000 rounds vs. 6000 rds for the Tiger's gun. link
 

Deleted member 1487

If there is no issue of the tanks of 45 tons being too heavy, why citing Wikipedia article claiming that?
KV-1 was not a poor design.In the same vein, we can argue that Tiger and Panther were poor designs.
Also - I'm not 'people'. Sudden appearance of T-34s and KVs prompted Germans to introduce both Tiger and Panther, plus other hosts of both practical and unpractical AFVs - that was actually done, it is not claimed by 'people' or myself.
I don't understand why the KV chassis being a flawed design makes any 45 ton design unworkable? That wasn't the case for anyone, it was just that KV was a problem and the Soviets learned from it and designed the IS series based on those lessons. The problems of the KV were never really fixed, while the Tiger's were. The Panther was on the way to fixing it's issues, but the war ended before they could be phased in.
The Tiger was a design planned in May 1941 before either the KV or T-34 were discovered by the Germans. The Panther of course was a response to both the KV and T-34. The initial idea for a 30 ton competitor was a fine one, the problem is that Hitler demanded a bunch of specs and a rush job that forced the weight up to 43 tons for the AusF. D, almost 10 tons more than the initial design, which partially came from having to accept a turret meant for a heavy breakthrough tank, the VK3601, instead of purpose designing a turret for a medium tank.


Germans needed a better tank pronto, not in 1945, and that a tank that can do anything. Going out with a tank that has a complicated layout, big weight and size, a brand new (almost single-purpose) gun costs them how much vs. a tank with simple layout, 10 tons less, smaller hull size, existing gun? Six to 12 months, in a war where weeks if not days mattered.

Neither Comet nor KV were flawed.
I agree, which is why the VK20 series seems to be the ideal compromise of a much better basic tank to replace existing medium designs and buy time for the revolutionary design with either a long 75 or 88mm cannon and heavier armor.


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L48 was a development of L43, though.
Both were a development of the PAK40 and to fit the ammo into the turret they had to shorten the round due to space constraints.


Barrel life was sacrificed to gain light weight. 2000 rounds vs. 6000 rds for the Tiger's gun. link
Sure, that was part of it. Plus the fact that they were using more propellant relative to the caliber putting more pressure on the barrel. The L24 75mm had a much higher service live than any of the above due to the low propellant of the shell.
 
I don't understand why the KV chassis being a flawed design makes any 45 ton design unworkable? That wasn't the case for anyone, it was just that KV was a problem and the Soviets learned from it and designed the IS series based on those lessons. The problems of the KV were never really fixed, while the Tiger's were. The Panther was on the way to fixing it's issues, but the war ended before they could be phased in.

The KV's relaibailty problems were fixed by 1942. Panther's problems were probably fixed with Ausf.G in early 1944. The T-34 have had reliability problems in 1941, fixed by 1942.
I've never stated that 45 ton tanks were unworkable. What sets apart KV tanks from other 45 ton tanks was time of introduction, a crucial thing in war.

The Tiger was a design planned in May 1941 before either the KV or T-34 were discovered by the Germans. The Panther of course was a response to both the KV and T-34. The initial idea for a 30 ton competitor was a fine one, the problem is that Hitler demanded a bunch of specs and a rush job that forced the weight up to 43 tons for the AusF. D, almost 10 tons more than the initial design, which partially came from having to accept a turret meant for a heavy breakthrough tank, the VK3601, instead of purpose designing a turret for a medium tank.

Looks like my English is too bad today.
I've never stated that design phase of Tiger started beacuse of Soviet tanks, but that sudden appearance of modern Soviet tanks "prompted Germans to introduce both Tiger and Panther". Introduction != design.
Also - let's not blame Hitler for everything. Panther was a big tank as conceived (big hull), it needed improvement of armor if people wanted it to survive. Adding armor to big tanks makes weight skyrocketing. Actual turret was not that big, though.

I agree, which is why the VK20 series seems to be the ideal compromise of a much better basic tank to replace existing medium designs and buy time for the revolutionary design with either a long 75 or 88mm cannon and heavier armor.

Why going for revolutionary design that would be able to take those guns in the battle? Go conservative and save time, money, resources.
 

Deleted member 1487

Why going for revolutionary design that would be able to take those guns in the battle? Go conservative and save time, money, resources.
Agreed, which IMHO is the VK20 series design that can handle the necessary armor and mid-range 75 until the revolutionary weapon has had a proper development cycle
 
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