VK 4501 P instead of Pz.Kpfw. VI Tiger Ausf. H1

[M.C.Schock]

On 26 May 1941, Henschel and Ferdinand Porsche were asked to submit designs for a 45-tonne heavy tank, to be ready by June 1942. Porsche worked on an updated version of their VK 30.01 (P) Leopard tank prototype while Henschel worked on an improved VK 36.01 (H) tank. Henschel built two prototypes: a VK 45.01 (H) H1 with an 8.8 cm L/56 cannon, and a VK 45.01 (H) H2 with a 7.5 cm L/70 cannon.

Porsche and Henschel submitted prototype designs, each making use of the Krupp-designed turret. They were demonstrated at Rastenburg in front of Hitler. The Henschel design was accepted, mainly because the Porsche VK 4501 (P) prototype design used a troubled gasoline-electric hybrid power unit which needed large quantities of copper for manufacture of its electrical drivetrain components, a strategic war material of which Germany had limited supplies with acceptable electrical properties for such uses.

Now let's say that something went differently here and that, because why not, Hitler decided to put the VK 4501 P in production instead of the Pz.Kpfw. VI Tiger Ausf. H1.
In order to show some of the differences, I have added the statistics of the two tanks below :˅

VK 4501 P
Weight: 57000 kg
Type: Heavy tank
Engine power: 620 h.p.
Max speed: 33.19 km/h
Hull armour thickness: 82/62/82 (mm)
Superstructure armour thickness: 102/82/25 (mm)

Pz.Kpfw. VI Tiger Ausf. H1
Weight: 57320 kg
Type: Heavy tank
Engine power: 650 h.p.
Max speed: 44.49 km/h
Hull armour thickness: 102/62/82 (mm)
Superstructure armour thickness: 102/82/82 (mm)

So with the statistics here, how much different would the war have looked and/or ended had Porsche's design been accepted instead of Henschel's?

M.C.Schock

 

[lionhead]

Well the tiger has better speed and better armor. What do you think?

 

[M.C.Schock]

Well the tiger has better speed and better armor. What do you think?

Well, the Porsche weighs less and, supposedly, broke down a lot but was quicker to repair compared to the Tiger.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The engine was an utter disaster for the Porsche design. Unless they replaced it, it would be FAR worse than the Henschel design.

 

[M.C.Schock]

The engine was an utter disaster for the Porsche design. Unless they replaced it, it would be FAR worse than the Henschel design.

True, but could it have been Simply improved in the Base of it's Creation?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

True, but could it have been Simply improved in the Base of it's Creation?

I don't understand what you mean exactly, you mean during the prototype phase? Yeah, but am not sure how simply.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

From some reading here and a book on the 'Elefant' tank destroyer conversion the problems/unrelyability of Porsche's engine set up was the sub-contracted electric motors being at fault. (Not sure atm who said suppliers were though)

As for 'Using more copper', this is true but the increased torque certainly made the Porsche design nimble as well as lending an impressive reported top speed (When every thing was working) hence the appellation 'Leopard'.

Also the power train allowed for an 'Easy' control set up which, by all accounts, was easy to master and use. Hence decreasing driver training time.

So..... perhapse butterfly in better electric motor suppliers? Any one have any ideas about the state of play of such things during the time in question?

Just some thoughts

 

[marathag]

The engine was an utter disaster for the Porsche design. Unless they replaced it, it would be FAR worse than the Henschel design.

Well, were replaced with twin watercooled Maybach HL 120 of slightly less HP, 265HP@2600RPM. Still underpowered. Porsche wanted to use a single V-16 that they were developing.

Now I agree, if it was to hit full production, the Porsche 101 engines would have to go.
So what to replace them with? OTL twin HL 120s?

Single V12, the watercooled 1409 cubic inch Maybach 230 of 590HP@2500RPM? Or go with the US method of a aircooled radial like with the M6 Tank, and use a BMW 132, 1690 cubic inches with 789HP@2290RPM, that was around 7 inches taller than the V12

 

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Would the BMW radial work better if placed 'Horizontal' rather than 'Vertical'?

Though that brings in the problem/issue of drive train through a 90' turn etc....

 

[marathag]

At work.

Would the BMW radial work better if placed 'Horizontal' rather than 'Vertical'?

Though that brings in the problem/issue of drive train through a 90' turn etc....

Some radials were designed for horizontal use, or angled, like in helicopters. Oil system needs to take that into account. 90° is easy, every automaker came into this with axles.
Its just one more intermediate gearbox that can also do reduction duties if desired.

Now this is a large example, almost 30,000 cubic inch diesel. 2126 HP, but ran at a sedate 400rpm.
Mostly used for power generation till Gas Turbines took over.

Smaller scale, like this rear engined radial powered auto

 

[Peebothuhlu]

Awesome! How wide is the Porsche hull?

Are we looking at a possible fit?

The other problem being won't it impact on Fw 190 production etc? :/

 

[M.C.Schock]

Awesome! How wide is the Porsche hull?

Are we looking at a possible fit?

The other problem being won't it impact on Fw 190 production etc? :/

The Width of the VK 4501 P's hull was 3.38m and the BMW engine was exactly 2.49m. So, as I understand it, the BMW's FW 190 engine would fit. However, the sudden need for more FW engines could become a problem at first. It could however, lead to the FW 190 D variant to be produced earlier.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Ooooo... interesting point. An earliry Dora would also be an interesting butterfly.

 

[M.C.Schock]

At work.

Ooooo... interesting point. An earliry Dora would also be an interesting butterfly.

Alrighty then, let us say that with the BMW engine installed, the VK 4501 P is used for the first time on the eastern front and Africa campaign. What effect would it have?
Also, as we mentioned earlier, how could the skies look like with the Dora flying through the skies late 1942?

 

[tomo pauk]

At work.

Ooooo... interesting point. An earliry Dora would also be an interesting butterfly.

...
Also, as we mentioned earlier, how could the skies look like with the Dora flying through the skies late 1942?

Hmm - what engine would've the Dora of late 1942 use - those of 1942, or from late 1943/early 1944?

 

[M.C.Schock]

Hmm - what engine would've the Dora of late 1942 use - those of 1942, or from late 1943/early 1944?

The Daimler-Benz DB 603 would still have been the engine used for the Dora, just like in our own history. The reason for this was because of these engines being introduced early 1942 but rarely being used for the Bombers intended.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Daimler-Benz DB 603 would still have been the engine used for the Dora, just like in our own history. The reason for this was because of these engines being introduced early 1942 but rarely being used for the Bombers intended.

The Dora used Jumo 213 engines exclusively (bar prototypes from 1945).
The DB 603A (service-worthy engines) was from late 1942, not from early 1942. Became reliable by 1944.

 

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Alrighty then, let us say that with the BMW engine installed, the VK 4501 P is used for the first time on the eastern front and Africa campaign. What effect would it have?
Also, as we mentioned earlier, how could the skies look like with the Dora flying through the skies late 1942?

Well.... unsure as to the engined Dora.... but there's bound to be a few changes to time tables of things like the timing of the Kursk offensive. That's if the bulge forms and I doubt the introduction of the VK will change things that much for it not to.

So... more German tanks and less delay in attack at Kursk giving the attackers more of an advantage over the defenders?

More and heavier tanks (For a relative value of 'Heavier') should help the German side over the Russians generally any-who.

Not sure about Rommel's situation, though.....

 

[Deleted member 1487]

So... more German tanks and less delay in attack at Kursk giving the attackers more of an advantage over the defenders?

Not likely:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13518046.2014.963418

 

[M.C.Schock]

The Dora used Jumo 213 engines exclusively (bar prototypes from 1945).
The DB 603A (service-worthy engines) was from late 1942, not from early 1942. Became reliable by 1944.

Thank you for clearing that up and sorry about getting that info wrong.
Now with those two engines NOT being available for the fictionally early Dora, what if the Luftwaffe used instead one of the following bomber engines that were available by 1942:
Junkers Jumo 211
Junkers Jumo 222 (Although in short supply)
BMW VI

Please answer, because it is obvious that you know your stuff on this subject. (No sarcasm intended)