VJ Day Occurs Before VE Day...

I'll keep this premise short and sweet....:)

What would've happened for the Allies to achieve victory over Japan first than Nazi Germany ?

Discussion....:rolleyes:
 
Well Id say. Soviet Union doesnt occupy anything in Korea. Maybe the Western Allies even end up occupying a chunk of Southern Manchuria.

Kwangtung Army equipment is handed over to the nationalists instead of the Communists.

Could even be said that throws the whole end of the Chinese Civil War right back up into the air.

A lot depends on the how. With Nuclear weapons? Negotiated settlement? Ground invasion of the home islands?
 
Or.....

The US Armed Forces At Pearl Harbor recieve a proper warning and decimate most of the Japanese Attack Force....;)

The British Empire and American Forces in Malaya and the Phillipines have better General's directing the defence, properly trained and prepared and put up more of an effective fight...As a result the Japanese timetable is severly thrown off and forces earmarked for Burma, The Dutch East Indies, and New Guinea are diverted to achieve the final costly victory....:p

FDR and Churchill decide to distribute the military aid and material evenly between the ETO and PTO...

Stalin decides to declare war on Japan earlier lets say in 1942 or 1943....:rolleyes:

The Japanese Defeats at Midway and the Coral Sea are much more severe....
 
Or, let's say that MacArthur gets killed in his evacuation from the Philippines. Without his influence, the Navy takes the lead in strategic planning in the Pacific theatre, and the Central Pacific strategy takes hold. There is no lengthy island-hopping campaign in the Solomons. Instead, longer hops are made: Midway to Wake to Marcus to the Bonins and/or Marianas. That puts bombers in range of Japan a year early, and the blockade can begin in ernest.
 
Or Lets say the following....

The German Military Mission to China is more effective or leaves later in 1939

...As a result the Nationalist Forces are better trained and tie down the main bulk of the Japanese Military into a longer war of attrition that drains off needed forces in SE Asia....

The Filipinos and American Forces in 1941-42 opt to fight a massive Guerilla War by scattering their forces instead of being holed up on the Bataan Peninsula...The Japanese find themselves in a nightmare war trying to hold down the Islands along with a hostile populace....

General Percival gets killed early in the Malayan Invasion and General Bennett of the AIF takes over and uses a better strategy against the Japanese which buys them enough time to get reinforced from the British Forces in India and Australia....:cool:

Ho Chi Minh and his Viet Minh decide to really make things hot for the Japanese occupiers with a massive guerilla war and a hard pressed France compromises in promising more autonomy for the Viets if they help mount a effective resistance....:)
 
Let's see... Limiting myself only to PODs after the war starts:

Evacuating Manila in haste, Christie slips on the gangway boarding Holland, cracks his skull, knocks himself senseless as he falls overboard, & drowns. Jimmy Fife is killed by IJAAF strafing.

English actually listens to his skippers complaints about the Mark XIV, after Nimitz broadly hints King is looking to crucify somebody for the failures of the (very similar) Mark XV used by destroyers.

English gets a report from Cdr Tyrrel D. Jacobs, a torpedo specialist, saying the Mark XIV runs too deep & the Mark VI exploder is unreliable, sending a copy to Nimitz & King. BuOrd officers are busted for doing inadequate interwar testing.

King, over the objections of the R.I. Congressional delegation, orders private contractors be allowed to build torpedoes, & takes the Mark XIV/XV out of production, in favor of the proven Mark X/XI.

Lacking torpedoes, English, Layton, Kelly Turner, & Nimitz agree to use DF, traffic analysis, & minelaying to bottle up & monitor Japanese fleet movements. It proves stunningly successful; Combined Fleet is essentially trapped in Rabaul & Truk for the duration. In addition, English (with Nimitz's approval) puts tankers at top priority, followed by DDs. Japan's merchant marine is in tatters by the start of 1944, & Japan's economy at a virtual standstill. When Saipan falls, Tojo's government goes with it, & Koiso makes overtures for peace thru the SU. MAGIC reads them, & FDR agrees to a negotiated settlement allowing Japan to keep the Emperor, tho Hirohito will have to abdicate in favor of one of his brothers (who publically opposed the war, IIRC; I'm embarassed to say I can't recall his name...)

OTOH, if I can have POD anywhere....

Christie drowns in the bathtub in 1910.

Fife is run down by a taxi carrying Winston Churchill.:p

When BuOrd requests Ericsson (DD-56) as a target, CNO Adm. William V. Pratt says, "I love the smell of Torpex in the morning. Let's blow some shit up." The Mark XIV (& its top secret Mark VI influence exploder) proves a dismal failure, & is cancelled in favor of retaining the Mark X. Mark VI project officer Ralph Christie (oops, he's dead, isn't he?:p) spends the war commanding a garbage barge in Norfolk.

When Customs seizes the codebooks of Nisshin Maru II, the local ONI man takes the Customs agent (neither of whom I can recall the names of:eek:) aside & says, "Don't be a f*cking moron, we've read this crap already." He does not admit to the existence of MAGIC. SubForce begins the war with Hypo able to read the maru code, & so manage (with their less-powerful but much more reliable Mark Xs) to sink about double the tonnage they do OTL, & Japan sues for peace around 11/43...
 
VJ day

If VJ day occured before VE day I believe that Berlin would be the alternative Hiroshima and the cold war would have ended quicker
 
Better planning

If you're looking at Singapore, throw in some HE ammunition for the 15" guns--and perhaps even the 18" guns from the large light cruiser Furious, also with HE ammunition.
 
Let's run with the "USA prepared for Pearl Harbour" - they see the Japanese scouts, play possum, "Tora, Tora, Tora" is announced and the attack begins, the Japanese realise they've been had but can only watch as their Zero's are swatted out of the sky whilst the naval task force is annhiliated by the sudden emergence of the Enterprise, Yorktown and Lexington. I could easily see the Japanese High Command pinning the blame on Yamamoto as a rogue commander and begging the USA for forgiveness as they know they can't match them in a slugging match. Does that count as a VJ day?

The other way of course is for Germany not to declare war on the USA. Full might of the US brought to the fray in the Pacific. Although the Germans/Italians are chased out of North Africa by Britain, that's where things stop. Britain wants to invade Italy or even Vichy France but without direct US intervention, they have to wait. When it becomes clear that Stalin is going to beat Hitler, the US declares war.
 
If VJ day occured before VE day I believe that Berlin would be the alternative Hiroshima and the cold war would have ended quicker

Why does everyone assume Berlin will be an alternate Hiroshima in these situations? Considering that in real life they targetted Hiroshima instead of Tokyo I don't understand why Berlin is always the first city to get nuked.

The other way of course is for Germany not to declare war on the USA. Full might of the US brought to the fray in the Pacific. Although the Germans/Italians are chased out of North Africa by Britain, that's where things stop. Britain wants to invade Italy or even Vichy France but without direct US intervention, they have to wait. When it becomes clear that Stalin is going to beat Hitler, the US declares war.

But wasn't the U.S. already attacking their submarines? From what I understand of the situation Hitler didn't really have a choice, I suppose it could be delayed but to my knowledge war was almost inevitible by that point.
 
Summer 1941
With the Bismark sank and the rest of the German Fleet bottled up in the Baltic Sea, Britian realizes there is no need for Subs in the Atlantic.
About 1/4 of the Subs are sent to the Med, with the rest being sent to the Pacific.
Several Months later, after being informed, The US sends it's Atlantic Subs West also.
This ensures that any Sub Spotted in The Atlantic is almost sure to be a U-Boat.

Dec 8th mid Morning Singapore time
Following the Japanese attack on the Airfields in the Pre Dawn Hours, the Entire British [12?] Sub Fleet has sortied and is moving North.
Elsewhere Other British Subs in Australia and The DEI prepare to leave Base.
Over the Next 48 hours the Subs find the South China Sea Target Rich, several Capital Ships are sunk, But Most follow Orders and concentrate on Freighters and Transports.

The Enlarged US Sub Fleet also Sorties, and Reports of Torpedo problems begin to flood Headquarters.

Late January 1942
At the Battle of Kualu Lumpur In Malaysia the British repulse the Japanese, who begin retreat North toward Thailand. Questioning of Captured Soldiers reveal the lack of Food, Ammo, and other supplies.

Meanwhile the Dutch and British/Australians Have beaten back several Invasion attempt on Java, Sumatra, and New Guinea,
However the Japs have established beacheads on Borneo and Celibus.

Summer 1942
The Japs hold Borneo and Celibus, While the British Hold Malaysia, The British/Dutch hold Sumatra, and Java, And the Australians/US Hold New Guinea.

In The US, Naval Ordinance has finally began paying attention to the Torpedo Reports.

Fall 1942,
US Marines launch a Invasion of Celibus, [OTL it was launched at New Guinea, But ATL NG is still Allied controlled.]

Meanwhile US Forces begin a Island Hopping campaign against the Japanese Held Gilbert and Marshall Islands.
Due to the Allied Holding of NG, the Allies also held on to the Solomons. http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/pacificwar/pacwar.gif

Spring 1943
British, Dutch, and US Forces, Land on Borneo. The Island Campaign expands to the Caroline & Mariana Islands.

The US Torpedo Problem is solved and the US launches a New Unrestricted Sub War on Japan.

Fall 1943
British and US Forces Enter Thailand.

Winter 1944
Thailand Surrenders, Joins Allies.

Spring 1944
Last Jap Troops in Borneo Surrender, US lands on Iwo Jimo.
US British Launch Invasion of French IndoChina.

Summer 1944
Iwo Jima Falls, First US Planes [B-29s] from Iwo Jima Bombs Tokyo

US Launchs Campaign to retake Philippines.

Fall 1944
Invasion of Okinawa, US Planes from Okinawa begin Bombing Home Islands.

Spring 1945
2500 Plane Raid with Half the planes carrying Napalm, Hits Hiroshima, The Fire Storm engulfs the City and spreads to the outskirts. The Death Toll exceeds 1/4 Million.

May 1945
The last Untouched City in Japan, Tokyo is hit with a 5000 Plane Raid, in several Waves.
By the time the Firestorm burns out 2 days later, over 1.5 Million People are Dead.

Realizing the Hopelessness of continuing The Emperor with the Assistance of Admiral Yamatomo, Launches a Coup against The Army, and Broadcasts a Surrender.

May 25
V J Day
 

Hendryk

Banned
In almost every TL in which it takes place, a VJ day before VE day will butterfly away the Communist takeover of China.
 
Zero's are swatted out of the sky
Don't bet on it.
Lexington
How does she come out of refit in Puget sound & across the Pacific so fast? Magic? An early trial of the Philadelphia Experiment, perhaps?
I could easily see the Japanese High Command pinning the blame on Yamamoto as a rogue commander and begging the USA for forgiveness
Then you really have no grasp of the nature of Japanese leadership in 1941. Yamamoto probably would have to resign if the plan crashed, yes, but IJA/IJN were looking for war with the U.S. anyhow, & considered it necessary as part of the Southern Operation regardless.
Britain wants to invade Italy or even Vichy France but without direct US intervention, they have to wait.
Why? DeGaulle suddenly becomes a pussy (now there's ASB), or joins Vichy? Britain can't build any LCs herself?
When it becomes clear that Stalin is going to beat Hitler, the US declares war.
Why? Because the previously dedicated isolationists, who've been chanting "No more foreign wars" & cheering while Europeans kill each other with abandon, suddenly decide they hate Communists so much they just can't wait to kill a few? On what basis?
In almost every TL in which it takes place, a VJ day before VE day will butterfly away the Communist takeover of China.
Absolutely right (& I maybe should have mentioned it...:eek:). Stalin's not going to be offering to join the war against Japan til Germany's dealt with so, presuming SU is still locked in a mutual Vulcan Death Grip:p with Germany, Japan is beaten before Germany is, SU doesn't execute the invasion of Manchuria nor the Kuriles, Chiang wins CCW, Mao is hanged (presumably; flees to Taiwan?), & by 1960, ROC is producing cars, TVs, & transistor radios so cheap, the USG & U.S. manufacturers are getting really worried. (Oz is world's #1 car exporter, tho: sales to ROC & India since '45 have been huge, & Burma's oil wealth is making that market look pretty good, too...:cool:)
 
Kwangtung Army equipment is handed over to the nationalists instead of the Communists.
This is usually overblown it discussions of Mao's victory.
The Commies got a lot more weapons including Tanks and Artillery, when the Manchurian Division defected to the Communists following the KMT decision to use captured Japanese soldiers to fight Mao,
 
Asia First?

If the US implimented a Asia first policy, Britain would look competely different. Perhaps Britain might of had a revolution and made peace.
 
If VJ day occured before VE day I believe that Berlin would be the alternative Hiroshima and the cold war would have ended quicker

Yes, an earlier VJ Day would have been very bad news for the Nazis, who would certainly have become the test subjects for our new bomb. Whether the Nazis would have given up after seeing their Fuhrer and his High Command vanish with the city of Berlin in a giant mushroom cloud is hard to say. They were a lot crazier than the Japanese, in my opinion. And I have no trouble imagining General Curtis LeMay telling President Truman, "We'd better drop a second one, just to be on the safe side. I recommend we nuke Konigsberg, Mr. President, just to make sure those Reds, I mean, those Nazis, get the mesage not to screw around with us."
 
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