Viva Mexico -Divergence 1821 .(Please comment if you like)

Which time period should the divergence occur .

  • 1820-1825

    Votes: 38 66.7%
  • 1825-1830

    Votes: 5 8.8%
  • 1830-1840

    Votes: 8 14.0%
  • 1840-1850-

    Votes: 1 1.8%
  • 1850-1856

    Votes: 12 21.1%

  • Total voters
    57
I read that the Mexican Government was clashing with the Church during this time period. A government that tries to or has no choice but to compromise could be a major ramifications politically because the Church during that time period had a lot of power.
 

mad orc

Banned
mad orc' votes are his soon to be wives vote because she doesn't have an account here but likes Caudillo history keenly .
 
It needs to be early to avoid Caudillo domination so the immediate aftermath of the revolution seems best.
 

mad orc

Banned
A new life .

"Remember Sebastian ,you have a choice ,go to Madrid and you will be destined to servitude for life ,but venture out there(To Mexico) and you will make your own destiny " ,this words of his granduncle John VI of Portugal still echoed in the boy's 11 year old ears as the general Iturbide placed the crown on his head .

For a minute he was still ,shocked ,his young mind began to question itself .

Voices in his mind began to speak

"But hadn't my grandfather in Spain prohibited this?" .
"But then my beloved grandfather John ,he had gone to such great lengths to transfer him here ,the secrecy ,the seedy looking ship captain at Lisbon ,the constant change of journey till Veracruz ,the quarrel(According to the merchants who had arrived a week after him) between his two grandfather "


Then Iturbide began to cheer .
"Victory to Emperor Sebastian I"
"Viva Mexico Mexico Mexico Mexico"

"What had the merchants said ,what was the word .............................ah 'Crisis' .Yes ,in simple terms it appeared to his young head that there had been a quarrel between his two grandfathers that the British and the French had managed to quell after dozens of compromises ,maybe this man ,this good man ,his greatest servant Iturbide may know "
Sebastian decided to ask him when this elaborate ceremony of crowning him emperor of Mexico and Guatemala was over .



Thus admist the boy's confused mindset ,Augustine had finally managed to get what he had wanted for years .Finally his life had found its goal .

Iturbide finally had a European monarch whom he could control .The Conservatives would be pleased .

As for the liberals ,any child is always liberal at birth ,conservativeness has to be taught ,not liberalism ,Iturbide vowed to teach the child just the right amount to appease all the factions.May it be the Yorkist lodge or the Scottish lodge.

But the emperor never got the chance ,Iturbide was busy as a queen bee .

One day for example ,about 3 days after the coronation ,he saw Iturbide have a meeting with some Clergy like people at 6 am ,then two days later he had a meeting with some posh military men .A day after that ,some strange looking men came .These men had some books in their hands and they spoke in a very irritating fashion .But they were wearing gentlemanly clothes which made the emperor think that they were fools dressed as gentlemen .

After lunch that day,Iturbide had a quick nap ,then he came to see Sebastian .After the usual ceremonial salutations ,Iturbide requested permission to allow another man to come inside .

After getting permission ,the man came inside .He was dressed in clergy clothes and held a huge bundle of books in his hand .

"Your majesty ,this man is Don Terrazas of Madrid ,he is to teach you the ways of state by your uncle's wishes " said Iturbide .
Thus ,the new teacher would complete Sebastian's education .

After delivering the teacher to the emperor ,Iturbide went off to his private quarters .It had been a busy week .
First he had a meeting with the holy ones ,the Scottish lodge clergical conservatives ,then he had met Guerrero and Guadalupe Victoria and finally the liberals of the Yorkist lodge ,all in one week .

With them all appeased ,now Iturbide waited for the Portuguese emperor's secret letter which would give Iturbide the legitimacy to act as regent for the Emperor .
Now Iturbide had to work on the common people ,not that they mattered much politically ,but these were the people who could tun against him in favor of an usperer .He himself was too popular in Mexico and the people's wish had actually been for him, to crown himself as Emperor .
But Iturbide knew that ,that was too dangerous .

Additionally ,the Spaniards still held the port of San Juan De Ulla which had to be worked upon .The sad truth however was that money was fast running out and hence ,to manage both
1)His huge standing army of the three guarantees and
2)The finances of the nation
was becoming difficult .Taxation was failing and the country might fall in debt .

But against all this ,Iturbide felt ,that if he had the will ,then he could overcome it all !
 
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I'm guessing Iturbide would've pissed off a fair few conservarives by HIS crowning of Sebastìan, since it would send a clear sign of the church's role in the new government.

I like Bash, he was a patron of the Spanish Red Cross OTL (after his reconciliation with Isabel) and did much to bring it up to the standards of the rest of Europe, IIRC. He was also a keen amateur photographer (like his cousin/stepbrother, Juan, conde de Montizon) and enjoyed taking pictures of his royal relatives. His military record was nothjng to be sniffed at either, while no Napoléon he was brave and a good soldier. (WARNING: this may be wrong. Its been a while since I read up on Sebastían. I know one of his sons was also involved with the Red Cross in Spain and another/the same one also with trying to establish a Spanish version of the Boy Scouts).

Just find him a better wife than OTL, where his first wife, Maria Amelia of Sicily left no issue and his second wife, the youngest sister of King Francisco d'Asis, was nicknamed "la infanta boba". Apparently it was a pity match by Queen Isabel as the poor girl was neither pretty nor bright. She gave Sebastían four sons though - although there seems to be some question as to whether these boys were also infantes of Spain & Portugal as their father was, or simply royal dukes.
 
Found some more info for you on Sebastian, and his parents:
So Pedro Carlos spent most of his childhood in Portugal with the Portuguese royal family and later he joined them in their exile to Brazil, which took place in 1807. Around the time, Pedro Carlos was described as "ignorant, rude and with a vulgar and indecent tongue". However, the regent Joao (later King Joao VI of Portugal) was very fond of him and favored a match between Pedro Carlos and his eldest daughter Infanta Maria Teresa, who was the most beautiful and intelligent of the Portuguese princesses at the time. This match met with the opposition of Joao's wife, Carlota Joaquina, who hated Pedro Carlos with all her heart. When she heard the news about it, she stated that it would have been less painful for her to hear the news about her daughter's death. Nevertheless, Pedro Carlos and Maria Teresa's wedding took place in Rio de Janeiro on 13 May 1810. Their marriage was very happy and they were passionately in love with each other. They only had one son, Infante Sebastian, who was born on 4 November 1811. Shortly after, Pedro Carlos became ill, according to some people because he was exhausted after having too much action in his royal bed. He died on 4 July 1812 in the estate of Boa Vista.

The marriage of infante Sebastian Gabriel, widow of his first wife Maria Amalia, to infanta Cristina, younger sister of king Francisco de Asis, was an arranged one. It was not easy to find a suitable husband for Cristina, who was called "la infanta boba" because she had not a clever mind and, to add more, was very ugly. The marriage with Cristina, thirty years younger than himself, did give to Sebastian a good position into the spanish royal circle.

Their firstborn, Francisco, was protected by his cousin king Alfonso XII. The king did send the boy to the Theresianum of Vienna. Francisco was the spitting image of his mother: not handsome and, specially, not a clever man. Alfonso took the chance to arrange his marriage to a noblewoman, María del Pilar de Muguiro y Beruete. She was daughter of a count and also a wealthy heiress. It seems that, after the wedding, Pilar started a relationship with the russian Basil Zaharoff. The three daughters of Pilar were probably fathered by Basil Zaharoff, not by Francisco, who has been created duke of Marchena by the king.

Pedro de Alcántara, second son of Sebastian and Cristina, also studied at the Theresianum. It seems that he tried to find an European princess to courtship her, but unsuccesfully. So, the young man, created duke of Dúrcal by his cousin, married María de la Caridad Madan y Uriondo, sister of the marquis of Arucas. Maria de la Caridad was another wealthy heiress. And the marriage was another unhappy marriage. Pedro was dead too young: he was just thirty years old when he died. Maria de la Cariedad remarried soon.

Luis de Jesús, third son of Sebastian and Cristina, was created duke of Ansola by the queen regent María Cristina. Luís was married to a grand daughter of the dukes of Riansares, Fernando Muñoz and María Cristina; so, the wife of Luís was a daugher of a niece of queen Isabel II. The lady was named Ana Germana Bernaldo de Quirós y Muñoz, but she had a nickname: Poulot. Poulot was not a faithful wife: after the wedding, she commited adultery with Manuel Méndez de Vigo, probably the real father of her second son acknowledged by Luís. Luís was dead young, the same history of his brother Pedro de Alcántara duke of Dúrcal.

The other children, Alfonso and Gabriel, were less known that their elder brothers. Alfonso refused to became a duke and he lived a quiet life far from the court. He was still alive during the Second Republic. The younger, Gabriel, was deaf-mute and he died very young.

The fourth child, Alfonso, was on he contrary well-known. He was president of the Spanish Red Cross. He has written an interesting little book about his branch: "Los hijos y descendientes de Sus Altezzas Reales los serenisimos señores don Sebastian Gabriel y Doña Maria Amalia de Borbon, infantes de España y Portugal.(1929)

Only [one of Sebastian's sons] S.Exc. don Luis Jesus de Borbon y Borbon, first duke of Ansola(1864-1889) was Cavalry officer in the spanish army. He died in Algiers 12 days before the birth of his second son, S.Exc.don Manfredo de Borbon y Bernaldo de Quiros, first duke of Hernani. Manfredo was also president of the Spanish Red Cross as his uncle Alfonso

There's a book "Madrid, Historia de la Fotografia" which contains many pictures taken by the Infant Sebastian Gabriel. He was the non-professional photographer the most important in Spain at that time.
 
I'm guessing Iturbide would've pissed off a fair few conservarives by HIS crowning of Sebastìan, since it would send a clear sign of the church's role in the new government.

I like Bash, he was a patron of the Spanish Red Cross OTL (after his reconciliation with Isabel) and did much to bring it up to the standards of the rest of Europe, IIRC. He was also a keen amateur photographer (like his cousin/stepbrother, Juan, conde de Montizon) and enjoyed taking pictures of his royal relatives. His military record was nothjng to be sniffed at either, while no Napoléon he was brave and a good soldier. (WARNING: this may be wrong. Its been a while since I read up on Sebastían. I know one of his sons was also involved with the Red Cross in Spain and another/the same one also with trying to establish a Spanish version of the Boy Scouts).

Just find him a better wife than OTL, where his first wife, Maria Amelia of Sicily left no issue and his second wife, the youngest sister of King Francisco d'Asis, was nicknamed "la infanta boba". Apparently it was a pity match by Queen Isabel as the poor girl was neither pretty nor bright. She gave Sebastían four sons though - although there seems to be some question as to whether these boys were also infantes of Spain & Portugal as their father was, or simply royal dukes.

Not,shei was not pretty, if at least she was bright, but pretty was not, Maybe is sister Luisa Teresa de Borbón, which id really look alike, but prettier is a good option, and have less obvious age difference

 

mad orc

Banned

Not,shei was not pretty, if at least she was bright, but pretty was not, Maybe is sister Luisa Teresa de Borbón, which id really look alike, but prettier is a good option, and have less obvious age difference

Found some more info for you on Sebastian, and his parents:

What if he simply married Iturbuide's daughter???

But hah ,since this story will still take us to the same(Remember its slightly different) result ,i don't even know if he will be alive till the age of marraige:p:cool::p
 
Not,shei was not pretty, if at least she was bright, but pretty was not, Maybe is sister Luisa Teresa de Borbón, which id really look alike, but prettier is a good option, and have less obvious age difference
Well, the oldest, Isabel Fernanda, was slated to marry the Prince Royal of France, Ferdinand d'Orléans. But thanks to the queen of the Belgians passing the comment about her [Isabel-Fernanda] red-hair, she got nicknamed "la monstre roux" (the red monster) by the Orléans clan. Ferdinand had a rather outspoken opinion of her: ""The Spanish one, never! She's hideous, and she's the daughter of a moron and of a whore!" She married Cte Gurowski in Dover, had eight kids together (Maria Luisa, Vincente, marquis de Bondad Real (literally marquis of the royal kindness), Ignacio, Francisco, Juana, Margot/Margarita, not sure about the other two), and then, as aristocratic men were wont to do, he left her thereafter. She died absolutely destitute in Paris, while her son, Francisco, was a cavalry officer in the Carlist army.
The hotel/apartment Isabel (nicknamed Bellita in the family) died at, forwarded her outstanding bill to Madrid, to Dowager Queen Maria Cristina, since it seems the one-time infanta had gotten sadly behind on her rooms' rent. The landlord was hoping that Cristina would cough up so as to avoid a scandal. Cristina politely forwarded the letter to her son-in-law, Francisco d'Asis. Who sent the letter back to the landlord with his thanks, and minus the outstanding amount.

The next one, Luisa, was married morganatically Jose Osorio y Moscoso, duque de Sessa.

Then the next, Josefa "Pepita" married a Cuban poet/journalist, who when he realized that she was serious about him, in the words of a contemporary "was aware that good fortune had entered his house and was determined to prevent it leaving as it had arrived, locked the door on it." When Doña Pepita asked the Queen for a license to marry the poet of revolutionary thoughts, Isabel II was shocked. "Lock him away for a season", she said, "and you get away from the court immediately. Seclude yourself in the palace of Valladolid in the company of your father until your obsession goes away." Of course, it didn't help at all, and eager to stop his daughter's whining, D. Francisco de Paula facilitated the marriage between Pepita and the Cuban. They went out for a walk one day and "happened" to run into Güell y Rente, who just "happened" to have not only a priest but two witnesses with him. Naturally, when D. Isabel II found out about the marriage she was furious, and stripped Pepita of her rank.
However, later, when Isabel heard that Madame Guell y Rente had a husband who was unfaithful to her on a near hourly basis, she offered to welcome Pepita back into the family, and restore her titles. Of course, Pepita refused, but she got the titles back anyways, her sons also got titles (marques de Valcarlos and marques de Guell). But she died, bankrupt, like her sister, surrounded by a swarm of gigolos/con-artists.

Now by comparison, Luisa's marriage to the duque de Sessa seems downright respectable. Yet D. Isabel II still regarded it as a morganatic marriage, despite the Osorio y Moscosos being one of the most important families in Spain.
 

mad orc

Banned
Well, the oldest, Isabel Fernanda, was slated to marry the Prince Royal of France, Ferdinand d'Orléans. But thanks to the queen of the Belgians passing the comment about her [Isabel-Fernanda] red-hair, she got nicknamed "la monstre roux" (the red monster) by the Orléans clan. Ferdinand had a rather outspoken opinion of her: ""The Spanish one, never! She's hideous, and she's the daughter of a moron and of a whore!" She married Cte Gurowski in Dover, had eight kids together (Maria Luisa, Vincente, marquis de Bondad Real (literally marquis of the royal kindness), Ignacio, Francisco, Juana, Margot/Margarita, not sure about the other two), and then, as aristocratic men were wont to do, he left her thereafter. She died absolutely destitute in Paris, while her son, Francisco, was a cavalry officer in the Carlist army.
The hotel/apartment Isabel (nicknamed Bellita in the family) died at, forwarded her outstanding bill to Madrid, to Dowager Queen Maria Cristina, since it seems the one-time infanta had gotten sadly behind on her rooms' rent. The landlord was hoping that Cristina would cough up so as to avoid a scandal. Cristina politely forwarded the letter to her son-in-law, Francisco d'Asis. Who sent the letter back to the landlord with his thanks, and minus the outstanding amount.

The next one, Luisa, was married morganatically Jose Osorio y Moscoso, duque de Sessa.

Then the next, Josefa "Pepita" married a Cuban poet/journalist, who when he realized that she was serious about him, in the words of a contemporary "was aware that good fortune had entered his house and was determined to prevent it leaving as it had arrived, locked the door on it." When Doña Pepita asked the Queen for a license to marry the poet of revolutionary thoughts, Isabel II was shocked. "Lock him away for a season", she said, "and you get away from the court immediately. Seclude yourself in the palace of Valladolid in the company of your father until your obsession goes away." Of course, it didn't help at all, and eager to stop his daughter's whining, D. Francisco de Paula facilitated the marriage between Pepita and the Cuban. They went out for a walk one day and "happened" to run into Güell y Rente, who just "happened" to have not only a priest but two witnesses with him. Naturally, when D. Isabel II found out about the marriage she was furious, and stripped Pepita of her rank.
However, later, when Isabel heard that Madame Guell y Rente had a husband who was unfaithful to her on a near hourly basis, she offered to welcome Pepita back into the family, and restore her titles. Of course, Pepita refused, but she got the titles back anyways, her sons also got titles (marques de Valcarlos and marques de Guell). But she died, bankrupt, like her sister, surrounded by a swarm of gigolos/con-artists.

Now by comparison, Luisa's marriage to the duque de Sessa seems downright respectable. Yet D. Isabel II still regarded it as a morganatic marriage, despite the Osorio y Moscosos being one of the most important families in Spain.
So what's the conclusion ,which one is more eligible ?
 
So what's the conclusion ,which one is more eligible ?
Depends when you want the marriage to happen. Belita married Count Gurowski in 1841, Luisa Teresa in 1847, Pepita in 1848, while Bash married their sister in 1860, and his first wife in 1832. TBH, I don't see a royal match with one of Iturbide's daughters happening. It's a chance for Mexico to make an alliance with a European power - for what its worth. Although, I'm not sure anyone at the top of the Catholic royal totem pole (i.e. the Austrian emperor or the king of France) will be forthcoming with a daughter. Niece or cousin, perhaps. Actually, I could see Louis Philippe offering one of his daughters - say Clémentine or Marie - over the pond if he still ends up in power and wants to make French inroads in Brasil (the prince de Joinville's wife was the heiress presumptive to the Brasilian throne until her brother had kids) and Mexico. Plus, the Orléans girls came with reasonably dowries, but a nice slice of the Orléans fortunes in addition to that FWIG (it was part of the reason that Marie's proposed marriage to the king of the Two Sicilies failed, because he wanted the donation-partage broken and her given her share before the wedding).

TBH, I don't see Fernando VII offering a daughter/niece to the Mexicans. He's already lost the colony, to still have to pay them his daughter/niece's dowry would be like rubbing salt in the wounds. Maybe hold off on a Spanish infanta becoming empress for a generation or two - let relations stabilize
 
After talking with @mad orc I'm posting my first update as co-writer.
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Agustín de Iturbide is a name both loved and despised at the same time. As the regent for the young Emperor Sebastián Iturbide had the responsibility to juggle the interests of the different parties and factions.

To be honest he was terrible at this he infuriated the Catholic Church by crowning The young emperor himself. Furthermore when on August,24,1821 Juan O’Donojú, the new representative of the Spanish king, signed the Treaty of Córdoba, recognizing the independence of Mexico. The revolutionary coalition quickly fell apart as Iturbide removed Guerrero and his insurgent following from influence.

Iturbide was also An arbitrary and extravagant ruler, he proved unable to bring order and stability to his country, and all parties soon turned against him. Opposition solidified behind Antonio López de Santa Anna whose own plan called for Iturbide’s overthrow from the regency and exile from Mexico.

Iturbide was determined to crush and resist what he saw as treasonous elements in the Mexican Congress as A significant number of this Congress supported republican ideas explained by the fact that a number of these members also belonged to Masonic lodges, which were introduced to Mexico in the 1780s. These ideas found a voice when Manuel Cordorniu founded the newspaper El Sol, essentially becoming the in-house publication for the Scottish Rite lodge in their struggle against Iturbide.

Gorka Rosainz claims that these lodges also received support from the United States, who wanted to see European influence decreased in the Americas. Iturbide's government was notoriously harsh in turning down territorial negotiations with agents of the United States' government, as attested by Joel Poinsett.

This led to rumors that Iturbide's opposition had U.S support and influence behind it. The Congress, believing itself to be sovereign over the Emperor and the people (whom, it claimed, it represented) and the recipient of the executive, legislative and judicial powers, openly antagonized Iturbide.

The Congress' sole declared mission was to create a new Mexican Constitution by which the Emperor could rule; but in the 8 months of its existence, it never moved to create even a draft of a Constitution.

Furthermore, people loyal to the Regent became aware of a conspiracy that involved several members of the Congress, which planned to kidnap the Regent and his family and tear down the Constitutional Empire. As a response to this threat to his life (and that of his family) and sovereignty, and to combat the resistance, Iturbide closed down the Congress on 31 October 1822, and created a new junta to legislate in its place two days later, answering only to him.

All hell was about to break loose in Mexico with the Regent against everyone else. But will the young Emperor's rule survive this event are will his throne fall to a Republic?
 
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