Vistulan/Chrobatian state survived the Middle Ages

What butterflies can to make the south-eastern Poland remained an independent state with a separate language ?
Would be possible surviving a Vistulan/Chrobatian state in region dominated by expansive neighbors: Poland, Bohemia, Hungary, Kievan Ruthenia ?
 
What butterflies can to make the south-eastern Poland remained an independent state with a separate language ?
Would be possible surviving a Vistulan/Chrobatian state in region dominated by expansive neighbors: Poland, Bohemia, Hungary, Kievan Ruthenia ?

I think for a time, Silesia and Vistula land were similar in Culture if you retain it that way, that is possible, you could have a Silesian-Vistulan state centered in Krakow or Wroclaw, Silesia and Vistula land both have Croats, Vistulan/Chrobatian cannot stand on it's own because of the Magyars, you could have a Great Moravian POD for that.
 
What butterflies can to make the south-eastern Poland remained an independent state with a separate language ?
Would be possible surviving a Vistulan/Chrobatian state in region dominated by expansive neighbors: Poland, Bohemia, Hungary, Kievan Ruthenia ?

Well...That's quite hard. My take on this is the western slavic nation could have been indeed made at the benefit of another tribe than Polans (after all Lechus was used for naming this region by Carolingians, after the Lendians), I don't think you'll have the room for two.

Not because of size of region, but because without unity, these tribes would have been absorbated by Germans or even other slavic groups (Czechs, Moravians, Ruthenians).

Now, let's imagine a much weaker Eastern Frankish Kingdom, with wendish marches managing to became more strong and living on after the XII, and *Hungary sattelizing Czechia/Moravia... You could have two political entities.

For different languages though...The best you could have would be a CZ/SK separation, so not really that distinct. Maybe, with time, it could evolve in Ansbau language but I kind of doubt that.
 
I think for a time, Silesia and Vistula land were similar in Culture if you retain it that way, that is possible, you could have a Silesian-Vistulan state centered in Krakow or Wroclaw, Silesia and Vistula land both have Croats, Vistulan/Chrobatian cannot stand on it's own because of the Magyars, you could have a Great Moravian POD for that.

Well of course, proto-Occidental Slavs, such as the Poles, Sorbs and Moravian Slavs were all very similar in culture. Also, I'm pretty sure that White Croatia is believed to be in Western Ukraine, just East of Ruthenia, and that the White Croats moved West and then South. So the Vistula was a temporary rest stop so to speak. And besides, the only decent natural barrier is the Carpathians. So even though you mentioned the Magyars, they're the only people that can't really do anything. They can't cross the Carpathians in any force.
 
Vistulans gould have been a unifying factor instead of the Polans in the area of what is today Poland, Belarus and eastern Ukraine.

As far as any hypotetical Chrobatian/White Croat state surviving the Middle Ages is concerned a researcher first has to define which Croat group is the basis for such a state or even if several of them are.

In the 9th-10th century there were Croat/White Croat/Chrobatian groups (tribes or even tribal coalitions since the OTL Croat origin myth indicates Croats were just the leading tribe of a horde/coalitions that was made out of Slavic and Turkic and even maybe Iranian groups) in eastern regions of the Prague Basin (Between the Czechs and the Moravians) centred around Libice, then there were in the area between Krakow and Nitra (some suggest that Vistulans and White Croats/Chrobatians are one and the same but the proof is circumstantial), then there were well attested Croats in Galicia which were organised as a tribal confederation (claim made by Ukrainian archeologists) centred on Stilsko area, then there were Croats that took part in the founding of Kiev (once again Ukrainian claim), then there were Croats in the vally of river Saale west of the Sorbs, then there were Croats in southern Austria as part of the slavic Carantania (thier influence on the founding of the state is heavly suspected since their settlements were in the political centre of the land), of course there were Croats on the east adriatic coast (but not only confined to the Croat dutchy/principality) and there were Croats in Atica, Argolid and Crete. The ones in Austria, Croatia and Greece certainly are the result of the slavic migrations but as far as we know at this stage of research we have no idea from which of the groups north of the Danube/Carpathians have they originated from. To be completely frank various "southern" Croats might have originated from different groups of "northern" Croats. Than again all the various groups of Croats in Europe (apparently there is an obscure tribe in Afghanistan calling themselves Croats as well, but to day I have failed to find any phisical reference of those guys apart from travels raport of a Yugoslav traveller there in the '60) could have a single point of origin and have been in some way related (beyond the generic slavic link), yet at the same time they could have been completely unrelated slavs, even some of these Croats need not have been slavs. Confusing, yes?

With moderate butteflies in the 9th century instead of Poland, Czechia, Ukraine or Slovenia of OTL we could be now in the 21st century be speaking of Vistulan, Bohemian, Alpine, Carpathian and Dalmatian Croatia. So the survival of various Croat groups through the middle ages is possible (some 160 000 people imigrating from southern Poland to the USA in the last quarter of the 19th and first decade of the 20th century declared their ethnicity as Belochrobatian aka White Croatian ) will they form functioning states is an another matter entierly.

I leave the OP to digest what I have writen as I just got inspiration for a map :D
 
Vistulans gould have been a unifying factor instead of the Polans in the area of what is today Poland, Belarus and eastern Ukraine.

As far as any hypotetical Chrobatian/White Croat state surviving the Middle Ages is concerned a researcher first has to define which Croat group is the basis for such a state or even if several of them are.

In the 9th-10th century there were Croat/White Croat/Chrobatian groups (tribes or even tribal coalitions since the OTL Croat origin myth indicates Croats were just the leading tribe of a horde/coalitions that was made out of Slavic and Turkic and even maybe Iranian groups) in eastern regions of the Prague Basin (Between the Czechs and the Moravians) centred around Libice, then there were in the area between Krakow and Nitra (some suggest that Vistulans and White Croats/Chrobatians are one and the same but the proof is circumstantial), then there were well attested Croats in Galicia which were organised as a tribal confederation (claim made by Ukrainian archeologists) centred on Stilsko area, then there were Croats that took part in the founding of Kiev (once again Ukrainian claim), then there were Croats in the vally of river Saale west of the Sorbs, then there were Croats in southern Austria as part of the slavic Carantania (thier influence on the founding of the state is heavly suspected since their settlements were in the political centre of the land), of course there were Croats on the east adriatic coast (but not only confined to the Croat dutchy/principality) and there were Croats in Atica, Argolid and Crete. The ones in Austria, Croatia and Greece certainly are the result of the slavic migrations but as far as we know at this stage of research we have no idea from which of the groups north of the Danube/Carpathians have they originated from. To be completely frank various "southern" Croats might have originated from different groups of "northern" Croats. Than again all the various groups of Croats in Europe (apparently there is an obscure tribe in Afghanistan calling themselves Croats as well, but to day I have failed to find any phisical reference of those guys apart from travels raport of a Yugoslav traveller there in the '60) could have a single point of origin and have been in some way related (beyond the generic slavic link), yet at the same time they could have been completely unrelated slavs, even some of these Croats need not have been slavs. Confusing, yes?

With moderate butteflies in the 9th century instead of Poland, Czechia, Ukraine or Slovenia of OTL we could be now in the 21st century be speaking of Vistulan, Bohemian, Alpine, Carpathian and Dalmatian Croatia. So the survival of various Croat groups through the middle ages is possible (some 160 000 people imigrating from southern Poland to the USA in the last quarter of the 19th and first decade of the 20th century declared their ethnicity as Belochrobatian aka White Croatian ) will they form functioning states is an another matter entierly.

I leave the OP to digest what I have writen as I just got inspiration for a map :D
I was thinking, Silesia might also merge with that state because Silesian and the Krakovian dialects are quite similar and more similar to Silesian at one point compared to the Northern dialect.
 
I was thinking, Silesia might also merge with that state because Silesian and the Krakovian dialects are quite similar and more similar to Silesian at one point compared to the Northern dialect.

To be honest, these groups weren't really well differenciated (as Marko said, it allowed the creation of slavic confederations from different tribes) so give a tribe or a confederation enough political importance and "gravity" and it would be really easy to do.
 
Croats from Ruthenia sometimes are treated as one of the tribes Lekhian or as a group linked to Lendian tribal complex. Allegedly confirms for this a West Slavic toponymy of the area (names of old towns, rivers).
Lendians inside Ruthenian borders were subjected to deportations by Yaroslav the Wise and Russification actions as a result of the activities of the Orthodox Church and later migration of Ruthenian people from the east during the Mongol invasion.

Marko said:
some 160 000 people imigrating from southern Poland to the USA in the last quarter of the 19th and first decade of the 20th century declared their ethnicity as Belochrobatian aka White Croatian

White-Croatian/Belochrobatian nationality was an artificial result of the Austrian policy to Polish people living in Galicia in the post-partitional era. Creation of this artificial nationality had would stoped striving for independence of local Poles.
 
White-Croatian/Belochrobatian nationality was an artificial result of the Austrian policy to Polish people living in Galicia in the post-partitional era. Creation of this artificial nationality had would stoped striving for independence of local Poles.

This is news to me since I am not aware for people coming out of southern Poland claiming to be Belochrobatians anywhere else outside USA congress papers on imigration.
 
Furthermore, the De Administratio Imperii uses the name "White Croats". While it's possible it was used for political purposes, it can't be said seriously it's a scheme from Austria-Hungary.
 
Top