Status
Not open for further replies.
So they're attracting Norse settlers from outside of the traditional Scandinavian heartland then? Impressive progress for 30 years. 1066 could be an interesting year, especially with the early introduction of the polearm.

The glaive isn't really a polearm in the sense a Halberd or Bill is, it's more of a short sword on a pole so you can stab like a spear and thrash like a sword but you're able to keep distance from your enemy, it was exceptionally great for Cavalry.

And yes they are getting some Norse from the nontraditional Norse heartland, infact it's interesting to read up on the Gaellicization of the Norse in Scotland and Ireland.

And you have to remember 30 years is a very long time, when you have nothing better to do that Explore, Farm, Fish, and trade it will lead up to trying to get more settlers in this case, it should also be reminded that all civilizations become great when they have a large surplus.
Not going to spoil but the "Norse" in vinland will become a whole different culture in a few hundred years.
 
I can't really add anything here than what I've previously said.
I enjoy this TL greatly and the format fits for a good read. Love the details and how it feels that every settlement is covered pr update.

Also, kudos for not giving the pagans super-powers etc.
I'm glad that they seem to be surviving in spite of defeat, but it can be tempting to give them "machine gun-efficiency" in order for norse paganism to survive(and thrive).
They're more like OTL copts now I guess.
 
I can't really add anything here than what I've previously said.
I enjoy this TL greatly and the format fits for a good read. Love the details and how it feels that every settlement is covered pr update.

Also, kudos for not giving the pagans super-powers etc.
I'm glad that they seem to be surviving in spite of defeat, but it can be tempting to give them "machine gun-efficiency" in order for norse paganism to survive(and thrive).
They're more like OTL copts now I guess.

The pagans will always be around, they will probably end up like the Jews and Druze where they remain a small and frequently persecuted minority, for now however it is more tolerant towards paganism given how most Christians there are former pagans

An yeah like I said in an earlier post other Vinland TL's make it where vinland automatically becomes anti christian pagan-land even though Leif was sent by the king of Norway to Convert Greenland it would only make sense if he did the same with Vinland.

And thank you for your appreciation it encourages me to keep making more, however due to IRL things it might be a week or so before another one can come out.
 
And thank you for your appreciation it encourages me to keep making more, however due to IRL things it might be a week or so before another one can come out.

No worries about that my good sir :)
Your last update was quite sizeable, and could count as two!
One thing I forgot was this; how far can one travel by river without traversing a waterfall from the Great Lakes towards the american south?
It will be pretty cool when the first norse to arrive at the delta in Louisiana(?) and go "I wonder how far we are from home".
 
No worries about that my good sir :)
Your last update was quite sizeable, and could count as two!
One thing I forgot was this; how far can one travel by river without traversing a waterfall from the Great Lakes towards the american south?
It will be pretty cool when the first norse to arrive at the delta in Louisiana(?) and go "I wonder how far we are from home".

Thank you :). and I don't think there are many if any waterfalls from the Great lakes to the Mississippi river as flat land like the Great Plains isn't rugged enough to make waterfalls and going down the Mississippi would be very frustrating as you could not sail up it, the only choice would be to try and get back home by the coast. And with the city states along the way it would be interesting to see what would happen with more Norse contact with them (I believe I touched on the subject a little already). Who knows whats going to happen when they find the Mexican city states (also it should be noted Aztec Empire didn't exist until much later and Meso-America and the Yucatan are all pretty much city states).
 
Thank you :). and I don't think there are many if any waterfalls from the Great lakes to the Mississippi river as flat land like the Great Plains isn't rugged enough to make waterfalls and going down the Mississippi would be very frustrating as you could not sail up it, the only choice would be to try and get back home by the coast. And with the city states along the way it would be interesting to see what would happen with more Norse contact with them (I believe I touched on the subject a little already). Who knows whats going to happen when they find the Mexican city states (also it should be noted Aztec Empire didn't exist until much later and Meso-America and the Yucatan are all pretty much city states).
See, the lack of waterfalls and such isn't actually that much of a hindrance. Viking boats were built such that an amount of men sufficient to crew them was also sufficient to move them overland, and historically they tolerated longer portages between rivers on their river based route to the Byzantine Empire.
 
See, the lack of waterfalls and such isn't actually that much of a hindrance. Viking boats were built such that an amount of men sufficient to crew them was also sufficient to move them overland, and historically they tolerated longer portages between rivers on their river based route to the Byzantine Empire.

Yes I know this, this is how Olaf Thorgilsson was able to get to the Ohio river without any settlements on the Portage routes, while it's possible to move them it is much easier to build settlements at portage points which happened extensively in the Rus.
 
Yes I know this, this is how Olaf Thorgilsson was able to get to the Ohio river without any settlements on the Portage routes, while it's possible to move them it is much easier to build settlements at portage points which happened extensively in the Rus.
Then why do you say they couldn't go back up the Mississippi? I mean, literally speaking they couldn't sail back up, but the trip from Iceland to the New World already necessitates rowing, because you're moving against the wind.
 
Then why do you say they couldn't go back up the Mississippi? I mean, literally speaking they couldn't sail back up, but the trip from Iceland to the New World already necessitates rowing, because you're moving against the wind.

OTL it was impossible to sail upstream because of such strong current, it was only possible when the steam engine arrived so you would be carried down by the current and if rowing with the current as well could get to the end very fast but you could not row up it. I believe the American government sponsored some canals along the Mississippi so ships didn't have to burn as much coal to get the same amount of distance.

But yeah, the only way to return home from what I know is by coast.

And you could zig zag against the wind, it's slow but possible along with rowing and every once in a while the wind changes favorably but for the most part it goes one direction.
 
Last edited:
Shame about Canute's North Sea Empire not lasting, but I'm not too broken up about it, given it barely survived his death in OTL. A surviving Vinland is worth losing Canute's legacy I suppose :p
 
Shame about Canute's North Sea Empire not lasting, but I'm not too broken up about it, given it barely survived his death in OTL. A surviving Vinland is worth losing Canute's legacy I suppose :p

Canute isn't dead though, he can still make a comeback in the future or on of his successors can. Maybe Harald Hardrada or Magnus the good rebuild the North Sea Empire, what if the english successfully rebel against their Norse kings and when the Normans come they become the ones who rebuild a North sea Empire? With butterfly effect who knows if the Normans will even get to england or is a Norse king is so powerful they don't even bother and decide to go attack Germany or something.

Basically with butterfly effect and an author who will indeed use the butterfly effect to it's fullest extant you will have no idea what's coming
 
The pagans will always be around, they will probably end up like the Jews and Druze where they remain a small and frequently persecuted minority, for now however it is more tolerant towards paganism given how most Christians there are former pagans

An yeah like I said in an earlier post other Vinland TL's make it where vinland automatically becomes anti christian pagan-land even though Leif was sent by the king of Norway to Convert Greenland it would only make sense if he did the same with Vinland.

And thank you for your appreciation it encourages me to keep making more, however due to IRL things it might be a week or so before another one can come out.
If someone really wanted a "Vinland" timeline where norse paganism survives in the new world, the divergence would probably have to be Erik the Red discovering Vinland due to going off course during his outlawry exploration, and only later finding what we call Greenland and giving it an unflattering name like Miklisland (Something like Great Iceland?), promoting Vinland(/*Greenland?) for settlement while calling his second find no more than a midpoint for the return trip. If the initial settlement turned out well enough, you might see trade developing between the settlements of the New World and Iceland. If that's good enough for Iceland, the 999 Christianization of Iceland might not be thorough enough to call the job in Iceland anything close to done, since it relied on a threatened trade embargo against Iceland.

Buuut that isn't really at the heart of this timeline in any way, so I'll shut up about it.
 
If someone really wanted a "Vinland" timeline where norse paganism survives in the new world, the divergence would probably have to be Erik the Red discovering Vinland due to going off course during his outlawry exploration, and only later finding what we call Greenland and giving it an unflattering name like Miklisland (Something like Great Iceland?), promoting Vinland(/*Greenland?) for settlement while calling his second find no more than a midpoint for the return trip. If the initial settlement turned out well enough, you might see trade developing between the settlements of the New World and Iceland. If that's good enough for Iceland, the 999 Christianization of Iceland might not be thorough enough to call the job in Iceland anything close to done, since it relied on a threatened trade embargo against Iceland.

Buuut that isn't really at the heart of this timeline in any way, so I'll shut up about it.

Yeah but you can always make one of your own, I can't really enjoy my own TLs very much because I formulate the plot and all so I can't get surprised or see something I didn't think about before reading it.
I actually made this TL in the hopes people would begin to make their own Vinland TLs with some concepts that others haven't touched on like:
1. Alligators would freak Norse out
2. Mississippian civilization contact with Norse
3. discovery of Islands like the Azores or something
4. the exploitation of the large amounts of gold in northeast manitoba and northwest ontario
5. Introduction of Corn/Maize to the Norse
6. usage of maple syrup/sugar
7. not too much into the development of ship technology
and some others but I can't remember.
 
12
Yes, you are getting another update this soon.

1036-1037

It was this year a drought spread across Hentaland and Saeturland, however the large stocks and fish meant that while unproductive it would not have been detrimental, some had even irrigated small streams into their fields to water them. It had stopped grain shipment to Iceland and Greenland, while Iceland barely suffered at all from it the people in Greenland had survived on imported grain and fish and this had caused another migration of nearly half the remaining Greenlanders to Vinland. The paramount Chieftain Bjarny Leifsson however had them colonize Elgurland instead of Vinland, the pagans in Elgurland did not welcome the some two hundred Christian immigrants. However the Christians lived in a separate ghetto community with better living standards and more freedom than the highly regulated lives of the Pagan majority who had to make do with copper farm tools as iron or steel ones were deemed too dangerous and could be used as weapons against the "Allthing" of which the people of Elgurland had chosen representation and the common man had little or no say in the Allthing.

In Elgurland the former chieftain Ake Carrsson's son Ivar Akesson had fallen in love with a Skraeling woman, they had married and Ivar had grown close with his father in law who happened to be a important man in the Skraeling Tribe perhaps even the chief but the sagas do not say in detail. Due to the oppression of the followers of the Aesgir had faced in Elgurland the Chieftain of the Skraeling Tribe agreed to allow and escort the Pagans to new lands on the interior, however due to the military presence of the Allthing the Pagans had lied in wait for three months where they then used skraeling flint weapons to attack guards and distract their attention while some two hundred people left the town. Only a fraction of the Pagans wanted to leave, the rest wanted to stay and wait for an opportunity to rebel or to not get involved with any more violence, most of who left where grown men and some male children. When Ivar led them west with his allied Skraeling tribe he had realized there were no blacksmiths or woodcutters among them, only farmers and potters. If they wanted to start a new community these things would be necessary but when he sent some able men to try and kidnap some they found there were no blacksmiths in the whole of Elgurland as it was Bjarny Leifsson's plan to rob them of Blacksmiths and shipwrights to make them nearly unable to revolt, and the woodcutters they had were useless without metal tools. Eventually they relented and figured they would solve the problem another time and used Flint and bone for tools like the Skraelings would. They had came across a large Lake (OTL Sandy lake) where they built small farms where they grew Barley but mostly hunted and fished, they had wanted to bring sheep with them but could not and eventually started wearing clothes similar to Skraelings in design, in order to maintain a sense of being more civilized they had cut the leather into long strips and woven those into clothes that were supposed to represent higher status. While without Iron or woodcutting they still were able to live comfortable lives and very much resembled a Neolithic society. The name given to it by Ivar Akesson was Ivarstad, but due to overpopulation he had to spread the people out into five communities across the shores of the lake where moose and other animals were the main source of food, many of the men had married Skraeling women.

In Norway Harald Sigurdsson had been making alliances with people in Norway near and far, the regents of Norway Svein was unpopular so his being cast out was welcomed by most with the rest being deported. Harald had seen Canute organizing his troops more thoroughly and decided to have five of his ships and their crew attack recovering Danish farms and he was preparing to lead a small force into Sweden and take over the minting station there. Canute sent an Army of two hundred to defend the towns there but were ultimately defeated and forced back, Canute then realized the foe was to strong to beat immediately and could only be beaten in the larger picture; He sent a messenger to Harald Sigurdsson that said: "You can have Norway and Sweden, I care little for their weather and the women are Hairy". However Harald believed it was a trap and immediately had his forces ready for an attack, after a month went by he still believed it to be a ruse and led three quarters of his fleet to Jutland and had been taking Farm after Farm until the whole North half of Jutland was under is occupation. Canute was on the Island of Zealand when this happened and with Harald's confiscation of civilian ships in Denmark led to his fleet outnumbering Canute's and his army was much larger than the Danish Army. Canute could have gotten his standing army in England but that may have caused a revolt, he had two options before him: Lose Denmark or Lose England; He figured it would be extremely difficult to regain control of England again as it had taken decades for his father and him to take it when in Scandinavia kings came and went every few years so he decided he could regain Denmark at another time, he retreated to England with Danish settlers who were loyal to him and he spent his time there collecting taxes waiting for a time to strike, Harald knew this of course and did not let his guard down.

In Denmark Harald Sigurdsson had crowned his Nephew King of Denmark, even though twelve years old Magnus was already engaging in repairing relations with the Nobles and People of Denmark, however his Uncle had done most of the work regarding this and many of those who suffered from the raids were deported to Vinland as Harald had Bjarny Leifsson's fleet receive them. With so much more farm space available the remaining Nobles were more than happy to increase their personal holdings and wealth. Things were looking a little brighter for Canute as well, he was able to focus much of his attention on England and with the Danish settlers he had he was able to further cement his rule in East Anglia, with threats of the Picts from the North he had contemplated the Idea of taking the ruins of Hadrian's or the Antoine Wall and using it not only for defense but to legitimize his reign by repairing such a monument of the old Roman Empire, it is thought that he may have had plans to crown himself Roman Emperor like Charlemagne was crowned it by the pope.

In Markland nearly every fjord had some kind of small village in it, they had grown rich from selling the pelts to Iceland and the abundant wood was shipped to Greenland and some of Iceland. Barley and Wheat did not grow well but the sheep thrived, and the great amount of hunting there was had allowed the men who were born there to be much taller and stronger than most other men due to increased protein diet. Another export from Markland was ships, while not of as great quality as Saeturland ships they had specialized in ships that were excellent for shoal infested places like Markland and Northern Norway. However the habitable area was small and with every thirteen years or so it creates a wave of new immigrants that either settle further and further North or to the other colonies. One small trading village was on an Island at the Tip of Markland and was at the entrance to the Helluland sea (OTL Killiniq Island), the village specialized in repairing ships and raising sheep, it was just as cold as parts of Iceland but yet there were still trees. The population of the village was mostly of merchants and shipwrights who raised sheep on the side, a great amount of gold traveled in and out of this small village as it was crucial on the Elgurland gold trading route.

In Thorkellsborg the mines a couple miles west of it on the Iron Island were dug out so much that they were turned into living quarters for the slaves of Bjarny Leifsson who would work everyday at mining and producing Armor, Weapons, Arrowheads, Plows, Knives, and a host of other everyday tools but he was sure to have them producing metal goods everyday. The Mines on Iron Island would never run dry it seemed, the only problem is that the Norse did not have the mining technology to go deeper than they already have and most of the Iron on that level was mined out, fortunately there were many other large Iron Ore deposits around the Thorkellsborg Area.

After the drought in Hnetaland and Saeturland the fields were just as productive as before, and once more were shipments of Grain and produce sent to Greenland and some parts of Iceland, a type of beer that used no hops was becoming popular and had been exported to the other parts of the Great Fief even some to Iceland but did not make much headway there.

On the Heitteyjar some of the Gulurskera crops had arrived and they were much more efficient in terms of grow area and were more nutritious than wheat, Nyrfold beans and gourds were being grown there as well. The settlement there had thrived but had not much contact with Vinland due to most merchants seeing no reason to go there other than to go to Iberia which they could do more safely by going through the North Atlantic crossing where established routes were already in place; however the colonies had frequent trade and contact with the Kingdom of Leon and some had even learned the language and taken wives from the coastal villages there, they eventually begun to have a minority of Leonese due to the imported salted fish from the Grand banks driving some of the Leonese fishermen to ride on Norse ships and settle the islands where they intermarried with the Norse and introduced Leonese culture and technology such as small scale stone masonry and sailing technology that they had gotten from the Arabs which allowed for more liberal usage of the winds on Norse ships and less reliance on oars.

In Byzantium a Greek merchant named Leo Argyros who found out about the walrus Ivory trade went north to Norway where he found out that there was land even further west than the place where they had hunted the walrus that extended southward as far as anyone could know, he had believed that it may have been the Northeast corner of Asia given how he had been taught as a child that the world was spherical and he then contemplated the riches he could gain from opening a new sea based route to the Silk the Byzantines had wanted so much from the civilizations far to the east. He had his Norwegian merchant friend help him get to Leifsbudir on a slave ship with gold coins in tow, when he reached it he was amazed and how different it was and when he got to Thorkellsborg had met with Bjarny Leifsson and explained his travels and had asked Bjarny for support, Bjarny had granted enough that he offered him passage to the other towns in his domain. Leo then went to Olafstad to ask the great Olaf Thorgilsson to accompany him on his next journey to the lands to the south, after some persuasion with gold coins Olaf agreed and he set off that summer.

When they set off that summer Leo had been amazed at the size of the Great Ships that were capable of traversing the wild winded south seas, they had passed a great distance and seen endless forests and beaches with no sign of civilization was rare for someone used to the Greek and Anatolian coast. They had finally arrived in Aurland when they went so far south that Olaf figured it was a new land and called it Myriland (Swamp and), there had been Aurdreki here as well and Olaf made it a point to hunt many of them. They had sailed around a very large Peninsula and the coast went west where they found the mouth to a River that was even greater than the River in Nawahlid, they had seen large settlements there that had grown Gulurskera and they had traded, Olaf had heard from Ragnar Bjornsson how there was a Large river from the Great lakes that flowed south and was the biggest river in the world. They had brought repairing equipment and repaired their ship and then set off even further west, then the coast went south once more where they had seen some more complex villages and the climate was beginning to become dry instead of the humid dampness that the land had continuously been from the northern edge of Aurland.

From here the villages became more and more advanced with some using mud brick buildings for their houses, now they had been sailing so very far south that it was winter but was still warm enough to make the men sweat. the coast and then curved eastward where they saw signs of an advanced civilization but did not investigate and then they headed further where it curved north then east once more where they saw a large town that used large carved stone buildings and had welcomed the Norsemen when they had set foot on the coast, the exact town it was is unknown but there are around 5 possible cities they could have landed at. The Norse had noted at how the upper class and rich had been dressed in long colorful feathers, the Natives probably though the Norse were strange as well and they had the Norse stay in a furnished large room with sleeping mats.

The next day they had seen the expansive amounts of gold in the "Chief's" household, later that day they saw a "Sporting event" where they passed rubber balls around in some manner of rules that the Norse did not Understand, the notable part is that at the end of the "Game" there were sacrifices, Human sacrifices. The Norse were bothered by this and decided to head back the next day, but due to some misunderstandings when they left they took captives and large amounts of gold with them. When the party arrived back in Olafstad and they brought back the captives and immense amount of gold they were hailed as Heroes, when the captives learned Norse they had told of even greater riches on the Peninsula and to the northwest there was wealth there as well, this had sparked an interest into the lands to the south and in response Bjarny had more ships with the requirements needed to sail in the harsher waters built. Leo believed that this was not Asia but that it had potential none the less and had moved into Leifsbudir and had made wealth by going into the slave trade and had hoped to lead his own expedition to the south.


Wasn't able to do as much as I wanted to but I needed to get another one out as soon as I could as I might not be able to update for a week or two, and with the previous update being huge this should make up for it so comment, criticize, and discuss on the pros and cons of this TL and how entertaining it is.
 
Last edited:
Interesting TL. Though, formatting is a bit of an issue; in the recent update I basically just skimmed over the last segment, because it was just one big wall of text. Breaking it up into more paragraphs would be a good idea.

Also curious about the pagans who fled. Shouldn't they be able to re-create metalworking with some ease, given that they both already know that metal tools are a thing, and (in a very broad sense) how they're made?

Obviously, they wouldn't be able to make anything of really high quality for a decent while, but I'd figure they'd know the effort would be well worthwhile.
 
Interesting TL. Though, formatting is a bit of an issue; in the recent update I basically just skimmed over the last segment, because it was just one big wall of text. Breaking it up into more paragraphs would be a good idea.

Also curious about the pagans who fled. Shouldn't they be able to re-create metalworking with some ease, given that they both already know that metal tools are a thing, and (in a very broad sense) how they're made?

Obviously, they wouldn't be able to make anything of really high quality for a decent while, but I'd figure they'd know the effort would be well worthwhile.

I can understand this and I tried to keep it one paragraph per subject and on Microsoft Word it does not seem as large so I will probably edit them out into smaller paragraphs later. But anyways thank you for criticism so I can fix things.

And the pagans who fled don't have metal working now going to spoil a little but they will attempt to recreate Iron tools and have crude creations, similar to someone like me or you who have probably never actually done blacksmithing before trying to do it and might have seen people do it a few times, like I said it was Bjarny Leifsson's strategy to make Elgurland completely dependent on the other colonies for ships, carpentry, metal tools, and much other things so that they could not thrive should they rebel.
 
Last edited:
It seems that things move a little fast. But still good.

somewhat, however each update is around 2-3 years and with nothing better to do than farm or build ships things will go fast as seen in OTL, and things have also gone faster in some situations OTL as well. But I respect that opinion and understand it.
 
Last edited:
Three very important details - the Natives may have taken their first steps toward metal working, rich raiding lands are found to the South, and Europeans outside of Scandinavia are now paying attention to the new world.
 
I can understand this and I tried to keep it one paragraph per subject and on Microsoft Word it does not seem as large so I will probably edit them out into smaller paragraphs later. But anyways thank you for criticism so I can fix things.
You're welcome.

And the pagans who fled don't have metal working now going to spoil a little but they will attempt to recreate Iron tools and have crude creations, similar to someone like me or you who have probably never actually done blacksmithing before trying to do it and might have seen people do it a few times, like I said it was Bjarny Leifsson's strategy to make Elgurland completely dependent on the other colonies for ships, carpentry, metal tools, and much other things so that they could not thrive should they rebel.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant; they might not have skilled blacksmiths, miners or smelters, but they do know that those things exist, and probably have at least some basic idea how they work, which should cut down on the time needed to re-create the basics, at least.

Definitely looking forward to how things will continue from there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top