Vinland Superpower

Norse cannot adopt maize unless they settle down to farm somewhere where maize would grow - and that would mean somewhere where maize already does grow. But they have obvious reasons not to settle in those places.

... which will happen in the first years of the massive settlement. Exactly - Montreal area is the gateway to the continent. Montreal through portage - into the Great lakes. The Great lakes southern shores are within the maize circle already around 1000 AD. Norse would encounter "three sisters" growing cultures very very early -- in these areas they'll "grab" not only good climate, soils, and "three sisters" but also place to grow and breed Eurasian bio-tech. The Great lakes area is inhabited by 50-60 000 natives around 1000 AD, approx. the same number or less as in OTL late 1600es. Say, 90% of these would die out from Euro-diseases = virtually empty space.
From Great Lakes Norse will follow the OTL French model of expansion -- Great lakes are interface to Mississippi system. I see Norse down in Mexican gulf no later than 1030-40 AD.

Just because varieties of maize grown in 16th century could be grown in Quebec does not mean that the varieties grown in 11th century could. The Indian maize growers did take time expanding. Some of it was spent on selective breeding of maize.

Sellection and expansion of maize territory shall be continued by the Norse.

The Norse would explore and trade far away from their initial settlements in Newfoundland. Like Ottar, somewhere in Lofoten in 9th century, used to sail to White Sea.But settlement, as opposed to sailing, trading and returning home, needs more incentives. The Norse never did settle on White Sea.

White sea area is not like the "French N America".
 
One thing to think about. Having done some research on the European diseases the only one that you are going to get are maybe Smallpox and measels,maybe flu and I'm sure a bunch of those rhinovirises that give us colds. Of course given virgin field exposure that could be enough
 
... which will happen in the first years of the massive settlement. Exactly - Montreal area is the gateway to the continent. Montreal through portage - into the Great lakes. The Great lakes southern shores are within the maize circle already around 1000 AD. Norse would encounter "three sisters" growing cultures very very early -- in these areas they'll "grab" not only good climate, soils, and "three sisters" but also place to grow and breed Eurasian bio-tech.

I see Norse down in Mexican gulf no later than 1030-40 AD.
I see 1030...1040 as the period of the first settlement at Montreal. No maize there, yet.

Next settlement there would need to be Galop Island.
 
I see 1030...1040 as the period of the first settlement at Montreal. No maize there, yet.

I think he meant norse explorations - not settlements. lol. The norse are pro when it comes to exploring up river systems and the such (think western russia), a similar massive river system to eastern canada with most of it boat accessable.
 
I see 1030...1040 as the period of the first settlement at Montreal. No maize there, yet.

Next settlement there would need to be Galop Island.

Yes, no maize-pumpkin-marrow-beans in Montreal area yet, but there is on the southern shores of the Great lakes. I believe between Montreal location colony and putting ships beyond Niagara into the Lakes would be only few years at most. The region is virtually empty, especially for a pool of settlers dozens of thousands of people strong.
 
I think he meant norse explorations - not settlements. lol. The norse are pro when it comes to exploring up river systems and the such (think western russia), a similar massive river system to eastern canada with most of it boat accessable.

That's right. The entire continent east of the Continental Divide is like thickly crisscrossed with water highways for the Norse type of shallow waters navigable ships. NOt occasionally I qioted the OTL 17-18 century French colonization & exploration, because in the first decades the Norse won't be able to achieve more than this. But in the next centuries they'll undergo Population explosion...

... and , yes, I really have in mind the McKenzee river system in Eastern Canada.
 
One advantage that the Norse will have over the locals wrt hunting/fishing/gathering is much better preservation techniques (and staying put so they can build up food stocks). For example in my home town on the coast of Maine, the Native Americans moved to the coast in the summer and feasted on shellfish and then moved inland in the winter and hunted and whatnot. There was always plenty of shellfish because the limiting factor in their population was the amount of food they could get in the winter, not get in the summer, since having a surplus of food in the summer didn't do them any good since they had no way of storing mussels and clams to eat in January in inland areas.

The Norse have a big advantage here in that they have various methods of preserving food (putting meat in yogurt, drying fish, fermenting fish like they did with shark in Iceland, making lutefisk, etc.) so they could store a lot more food to get them over the winter hump than the Native Americans in the area could, especially if they have some sheep to slaughter if they're hungry.

So even if the Norse focus on hunting, gathering and fishing the land can support a lot more Norse than it could Native Americans since the Norse can store the food for winter and have the summer surplus boost their population in a way that it really didn't for the Native Americans and their better boats let them do more offshore fishing, which (unless I'm missing something) the Native Americans didn't do so much of. Being able to get at the cod is such a massive advantage since cod are one of the easiest fish to dry because of their low fat content and dried cod has more protein per pound that just about anything else in the world. Also cod are ridiculously easy to catch, will be present in large numbers (and it'll take generations and generations before the Norse can put a dent in cod stocks let along deplete them) and tastes pretty damn good. It's also an excellent trade good to sell to hungry Iceland.

So, aside from pissing off the locals needlessly, probably the biggest mistake the Norse made was not focusing enough on fishing. They shouldn't have even bothered with farming much at all until they were already well established with cod, game, berries and shellfish. Newfoundland is sucky farmland and it's hard to establish a new farming settlement in sucky farmland when people are shooting at you, which is why Vinland failed. If the locals natives hadn't been pissed off as much (or had been more dead due to diseases) and if the Norse had focused more on fishing and less on farming (at least until well established with big stocks of dried cod in case the harvest failed). Also sheep herding trumps farming since it's much less labor intensive which is a good idea when you have a lot of land and few people (unless the population gets big). What probably held them back from that was that in Iceland fishing had less social status than farming since a lot of the fishermen were people who were too poor to have a farm.
 
The region is virtually empty, especially for a pool of settlers dozens of thousands of people strong.

The pool of settlers is a few thousand settlers through 11th century, not yet dozens of thousands. And most of these a few thousands stay back in Newfoundland.

The few tens of initial settlers of Montreal settle there BECAUSE the region is not "empty" for them. They are not after farmland (enough of it back at Newfoundland) - their aim is trading with the Indians all around. Who are local hunter-gatherer Montagnais - plus the route up to Great Lakes, and Mississippi culture.

It took the French a few decades before Montreal was populous enough to spare the settlers to send up to lake Ontario. It would take the Norse a few decades, too.
 
Dear Chornedsnorkack,

The pool of settlers is a few thousand settlers through 11th century, not yet dozens of thousands.

Welllll, I believe that in order a population boom to occur, there must be a minimum critical mass of population. If it is too little ( like these 4-5 000 Norse acting from their base in Greenland ) the fate of the settlement ( if it is sealed from new immigrants import ) would be the same as in OTL N American Norse. The colony would fade away. I can not estimate how much the "critical mass" must be, but I wild-guess that a ( connected with appropriate transport means, i.e. NOT necessary occuptying single "town" ) "population enough" must comprise at least small 5-figure number. May be 10-15 000 people?
Whatever the "critical mass" X of number of people is ( with proper gender and age distro ) the dynamics of this populaton are two-ways:
1. Under X = comparativelly quick population crunch ( die out ).
OR
2. Over X = exponential growth ( population explosion ).

"My" number of 50-60 000 people "initial investment" is guesstimated to be several times bigger then this hypothetical X.

The realisticity of 50-60 000 people as religious persecution immigrants ( and as a cause for the consequential "seal off" of the Norse N American society from Europe ), finds its support in the Eric's Greenlanders - virtually instant relocation of 4-5 thousand people, on as s.o. wisely noted, purely private basis. With serious reason, organization and funding, to move not 5 000 but 50 000 would be piece of cake.

And most of these a few thousands stay back in Newfoundland.

I do not believe that Newfoundland will remain more than a gateway and commersial hub with the presence of these far far richer lands south and southwest. The Ann'es Medows site shall develop into a city, but it will feed upon its geography - between iron and other things rich Greenland ( which may remain to be the "capital" of the Commonwealth of commonwealths for historical and other reasons... ) and the wood, food, etc. richer south. Initially not more than few thousands of people will remain in Newfoundland - eventually more than 80% of the immigrants / refugees will directly head to the bordertowns of the St. Lawrence-Great Lakes shores and to the Maritimes and New England and even more south Atlantic shoreline places.

The few tens of initial settlers of Montreal settle there BECAUSE the region is not "empty" for them.

Tens with the prep missions of Leif-Bijarni in 985-1001 AD period, and thousands there on waves from the Exodus. Thus up to Niagara falls the river will be dotted with settlements comprising of thousands and thousands of Norse, settling on places which already have been marked, utilized and started during the period between Discovery and Exodus.

They are not after farmland (enough of it back at Newfoundland)

Well, Newfoundland even in this warmer climatic period can not compete in agriculture with the St. Lawrence system lands. There shall be food production on Newfoundland - fish, sheep, goats ... but the more intensive agriculturally ( and thus populationally ) areas will be down south and up-river. ( Specialization in fact will strenghten a lot the Commonwealth - the different places of colonization are "strong" in various aspects which automatically leads to TRADE. Per instance Greenland will export not only the best Lawyers and Justice, and to profit from housing the Allthing, but also products from the native iron of Disko Island, processed with southern fuel - wood and even shallow coal from Maritimes ... )

- their aim is trading with the Indians all around. Who are local hunter-gatherer Montagnais - plus the route up to Great Lakes, and Mississippi culture.

The total native population of locals within the drainage basin of the Great Lakes, i.e. mainly on the shores was 50-60 000 people in OTL 17-18th century. In Newfoundland lived about 5000 in total of Beotuks. The Inuit population of the North ( the area of concern of Greenland and Helluland "governments" ) is in nowadays OTL 150 000 due to recent sharp increase. ITTL 1000 AD Inuit should've been not more than 20 000 people in total from Chukotka to Greenland. SO, what locals? They'll be pretty quickly integrated/absorbed/die out ...

It took the French a few decades before Montreal was populous enough to spare the settlers to send up to lake Ontario. It would take the Norse a few decades, too.

Yes, but French were sending comparativelly few colonists. Their demographic base was an ocean away. ITTL case with 50 000 total influx of which ( realistic ) distro at say ITTL 1020es:
- Greenland - 5000
- Helluland - 2000
- Markland - ( coinciding with OTL French N America of 17-18 cent. ) - 25 000
- Vinland - ( coinciding with OTL British N America of 17-18 cent ) - 25 000
will manage to take control over the territories and explosivelly to expand inland...

I believe given the pagan Icelandic Commonwealth's "anarcho-democratic-capitalism" the colonies multiplication will share 99% of the characteristics of the modes of the OTL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity#Greek_colonies.

The mother-of-all-mother-cities ( the Prime Metropolis, grandmother-city ) shall be Greenland's first settlement from 980es. From there on via the first three colonization vectors' points - 1. Newfoundland ( Markland, and up St.Lawrence system -> Great Lakes -> Mississippi, MCKenzee, etc. ), 2. Helluland ( Inuit ), 3. Vinland ( OTL Canadian Maritimes, New Enlgand, and down the Atlantic coast of N America -> Carribean basin... -> the big watersheds of South America ... ) will breed colonies-of-colonies-of-colonies ... in doubling rate coinciding with the population doubling rate ( of say, 20-25 years ).

As in OTL Greek colonization every colony will be formally independent, the colonies will be "anarchistic in the Icelandic way" and will form commonwealth of colonies the way the colonies themselves are commonwealths of their citizens / borgaranna and will have certain hinterland of 3-4 digit number of square miles like per instance the Black sea colonies had such, they did have the notion of polis territory.

Thus we have ( number of colonies ) - ( year AD ):
1 - 982
3 - 985
10 - 1010
25 - 1025
50 - 1050
100 - 1075
200 - 1100
400 - 1125
800 - 1150
1600 - 1175
3200 - 1200
...
 
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