Vikings of America

Maybe. Just how developed were the Southeastern Mississippian culture people? Georgia and Carolinas? The Norse can easily enter e. g. St. Johns River from Jacksonville to beyond Palatka... if they hear of sea in the west, it will be easier to just check if the peninsula has an end. Consider the number of first settlers who did the 1000 km circumnavigation of Iceland, or Erik the Red exploring over 1000 km northwest along Greenland coast.

Regarding Hansas... when will anyone except the Vinlanders themselves develop ships suitable for trans-Atlantic trade?

The chiefdoms of the Mississippian culture sophisticated enough as they had large settlements, a hierarchical social structure and had large-scale Maize production, and were developing a diverse range of specialist crafts. But what could the Norse get in return for iron tools and domesticated animals? Perhaps they could manipulate tensions between different tribal-confederations, and profit from the local conflicts through the slave-trade?

I think Cogs, which were first developed in Flanders and the northern Netherlands, appeared as early as the late 11th century. If Iceland is going to become the middle-man in the trade between the Vinlandic Gothord and the states of northern Europe, Cogs would soon out-phase Knarrs as maritime vessels of the eastern coast of North America (although Knarrs may still feature for a long time as river-craft).
 
The chiefdoms of the Mississippian culture sophisticated enough as they had large settlements, a hierarchical social structure and had large-scale Maize production, and were developing a diverse range of specialist crafts. But what could the Norse get in return for iron tools and domesticated animals? Perhaps they could manipulate tensions between different tribal-confederations, and profit from the local conflicts through the slave-trade?

I think slaves would be very valuable for the Vikings and since that is a depleting resource I think it would encorage the Vikings to raid further. Besides slaves there is Indian Tobacco, pelts, and timber. As I recall Greenland and Iceland failed to maintain large populations over time due to the scarcity of timber for fuel, building and of course ships.

The Slavery issue would be interesting if the Pagan Norse see the Indians as not even Human, perhaps when Christianity comes there could be a Bartolome las Casas type Priest who argues for the rights of the Skraeling.
 
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The chiefdoms of the Mississippian culture sophisticated enough as they had large settlements, a hierarchical social structure and had large-scale Maize production, and were developing a diverse range of specialist crafts. But what could the Norse get in return for iron tools and domesticated animals? Perhaps they could manipulate tensions between different tribal-confederations, and profit from the local conflicts through the slave-trade?

The Mississippian cultures could potentially have a lot of material goods to trade the Vikings beyond slaves (who, unlike the plantation owners of OTL's colonial powers, would not have needed an industrial-level slave trade).

Alligator skins, freshwater pearls, cotton clothing, lumber, and pelts were all goods that the Mississippian cultures could provide, and that the Norse could find very useful. Even for something that they could get themselves-for example, some pelts-it could be more efficient to just trade for them rather than trapping for it themselves, as the time and effort spent on that would take them away from their farms and forges.
 
The Mississippian cultures could potentially have a lot of material goods to trade the Vikings beyond slaves (who, unlike the plantation owners of OTL's colonial powers, would not have needed an industrial-level slave trade).

Alligator skins, freshwater pearls, cotton clothing, lumber, and pelts were all goods that the Mississippian cultures could provide, and that the Norse could find very useful. Even for something that they could get themselves-for example, some pelts-it could be more efficient to just trade for them rather than trapping for it themselves, as the time and effort spent on that would take them away from their farms and forges.

They may not have some mighty plantation economy, but they would have a lot of politically-affluent landowners, who may end up with vast swathes of empty land in which needs cultivating. And with an initially limited population of small-holders, they would still need the extra hands.

The descendants of these enslaved natives would form a large part of the populations of Markland and Vinland.

Cotton and pearls could draw interest of Norse merchants, which would encourage them even further to investigate the islands and coasts around the Caribbean.
 
The chiefdoms of the Mississippian culture sophisticated enough as they had large settlements, a hierarchical social structure and had large-scale Maize production, and were developing a diverse range of specialist crafts. But what could the Norse get in return for iron tools and domesticated animals?
At first, trading with hunter-gatherers of Newfoundland and Maritimes... I expect the Norse would not be selling leather - the Indians have it themselves.

What would happen is that the Norse would avoid hunting expeditions - hunting parties would be vulnerable to quarrels with Indians over the hunting grounds. Instead, the Norse would leave hunting to Indians and trade for the produce of hunters.

Meat would be traded both ways. The Indians would be selling wild game when the hunting is good and buying domesticated animal meat when hunting fails - the advantage of domestic animals is that the Norse can slaughter them when required. But in the long term, more meat would be traded from hunters to Norse than vice versa - because the Norse are also selling iron tools, grain and woven cloth - none of which can be produced by Beothuk and all of which are useful. Availability of wild game via trade with Skraelings would also affect the amount of animals the Norse are keeping... not sure how the balance would turn out.

Will the Norse soon introduce hemp and flax to Newfoundland?

Sailing further... they will be wanting low volume, high value goods. Which Indian goods will be high consumption value for the Norse?
I think Cogs, which were first developed in Flanders and the northern Netherlands, appeared as early as the late 11th century. If Iceland is going to become the middle-man in the trade between the Vinlandic Gothord and the states of northern Europe, Cogs would soon out-phase Knarrs as maritime vessels of the eastern coast of North America (although Knarrs may still feature for a long time as river-craft).

Iceland had few ships OTL. Little wood locally - Icelanders could buy ships from Norway, but normally they chose not to, and let Norwegian knarrs do the trade with Norway.

TTL, Vinlanders would use their abundant wood to build their own knarrs, sail to Iceland - and while Icelanders would buy a few, I suspect Vinlanders would use their knarrs to sail beyond Iceland to Norway and British Islands, and be the middlemen for the trade between Iceland and Europe.

Cogs tended to be restricted to large ports, where large volumes of trade were concentrated and deep water wharves were built. Like Bergen, Stockholm, Turku... Much of the coastwise trade of northern Norway, Sweden and Finland was still handled by smaller, Norse owned vessels which sailed to the Hansa ports of Bergen, Stockholm or Turku and there sold/reloaded their goods to Hansa cogs.
 
If the basic design of the Cog finds its way to Vinland, perhaps from Icelanders settling in North America or Vinlanders whom went to Iceland on business, they'll have the obvious resources to build them. Perhaps even go so far as to improve upon its design as they need to. Sustained trade across the Atlantic from 1000-1500 could spur new developments in ship building.

I wonder, though if the Islamic Andalusians, given a reason, would sail far to Iceland? Because if the Norse would adopt the Lateen sail, which could encourage long-distance voyages.
 
If the basic design of the Cog finds its way to Vinland, perhaps from Icelanders settling in North America or Vinlanders whom went to Iceland on business, they'll have the obvious resources to build them.
Cogs were not seen in Iceland before 15th century. Really. The trade treaties between Norway and Hansa from 1294 on forbade Hansa from sailing beyond Bergen. All trade to northern Norway, Shetland and Orkney islands and Iceland had to go on Norwegian ships - and it did, till 15th century. It was in 1423 that the first Hansa ship reached Iceland illegally.

Cogs were around from the 12th century, on North and Baltic seas. But it took time for the Hanse to spread their trade. No one could forbid the Ganse mechants of first half of 13th century from sailing to independent Iceland - but they did not yet have the sailing skills and extent of trade to attempt to explore there, and not a single one did.

But the Vinlanders will encounter cogs all right. Plenty of Icelanders of sagas travelled to spend time in Norway, some went as far as Constantinople. I expect that the knarrs of Vinlanders sail to Bergen and tie up alongside Hansa cogs - and quite plausibly also visit Hamburg and Bremen themselves. Then, going back home, they will apply the lessons when they build their next ship...
I wonder, though if the Islamic Andalusians, given a reason, would sail far to Iceland? Because if the Norse would adopt the Lateen sail, which could encourage long-distance voyages.

The Norse could sail from Norway to Andalusia and beyond. Vikings first raided Cadiz in 844, entered Mediterranean in 859. Sigurd Jorsalfar, after 1107, sailed Norwegian fleet all the way to Holy Land. Considering that a Vinland knarr has already crossed a long, long way to reach Scotland or Ireland, following the coast south to Andalusia is not so much extra.
 
Cogs were not seen in Iceland before 15th century. Really. The trade treaties between Norway and Hansa from 1294 on forbade Hansa from sailing beyond Bergen. All trade to northern Norway, Shetland and Orkney islands and Iceland had to go on Norwegian ships - and it did, till 15th century. It was in 1423 that the first Hansa ship reached Iceland illegally.

Cogs were around from the 12th century, on North and Baltic seas. But it took time for the Hanse to spread their trade. No one could forbid the Ganse mechants of first half of 13th century from sailing to independent Iceland - but they did not yet have the sailing skills and extent of trade to attempt to explore there, and not a single one did.

But the Vinlanders will encounter cogs all right. Plenty of Icelanders of sagas travelled to spend time in Norway, some went as far as Constantinople. I expect that the knarrs of Vinlanders sail to Bergen and tie up alongside Hansa cogs - and quite plausibly also visit Hamburg and Bremen themselves. Then, going back home, they will apply the lessons when they build their next ship...

Let's keep in mind, though, that Vinland-Markland would be the reason for a vibrant Medieval trans-Atlantic trade from the 11th century on, which could go a long way to change the dynamics in northern European maritime trade. Even if Cogs themselves don't make it there, a basic desire for the speed of open-ocean vessels and carrying capacity for goods would bring that about.

The Norse could sail from Norway to Andalusia and beyond. Vikings first raided Cadiz in 844, entered Mediterranean in 859. Sigurd Jorsalfar, after 1107, sailed Norwegian fleet all the way to Holy Land. Considering that a Vinland knarr has already crossed a long, long way to reach Scotland or Ireland, following the coast south to Andalusia is not so much extra.

Would any of the Norse from Iceland, Scandinavia or Vinland, who visit the ports of France and Spain, even as far as the Mediterranean coasts, be picking up on the Lateen sails on the Arabic Dhows they see?

On the other hand, as Tobacco, Squash and Pumpkins are sent to western Europe, either some Andulusian traders or geographers would sail to Iceland to learn where they came from and how to acquire the seeds, as Tobacco grows in popularity. In which case, the common sight of Lateen sails would compel local sailors in Icelandic or Scandinavian waters to adopt them.
 
Let's keep in mind, though, that Vinland-Markland would be the reason for a vibrant Medieval trans-Atlantic trade from the 11th century on,
Not then. In 11th century, the population of Vinland will be smaller than Iceland, and further away.
On the other hand, as Tobacco, Squash and Pumpkins are sent to western Europe, either some Andulusian traders or geographers would sail to Iceland to learn where they came from and how to acquire the seeds, as Tobacco grows in popularity. In which case, the common sight of Lateen sails would compel local sailors in Icelandic or Scandinavian waters to adopt them.

Iceland and Greenland did export high-value, low-volume exotic goods. Hawks from Iceland, walrus ivory and polar bear and muskox skins from Greenland... Andalusian geographers did not take their dhows far away to explore their origin. If anything they would have questioned the visiting Norse traders at their ports. Or take Ottar - owned a farm in northern Norway. Traded with local hunter-gatherer Sami. Sailed all the way around Nordkap to White Sea, traded with the local Biarmians - but notably di not settle there. Also sailed his own ship the other direction to England - reported his voyages.

If any European geographers want to follow the trade to Vinland, one likely way would be as passengers on Vinlander operated ships.

Vinland/Newfoundland will have a number of autonomous chieftains like Ottar, who may meet at an Althing and even have a supreme chieftain, and if Christian then a Bishop - but who are trading with neighbouring Beothuk on their own and who are sailing far south to St. Lawrence and Atlantic coast to trade with Skraelings, and also in the other direction to Greenland, Iceland - and beyond.

The problem is, that while knarr is fine for medium distance trips - Norway-England, Lofotes-White Sea, Scotland-Iceland, as well as Newfoundland to Greenland, St. Lawrence or Rhode Island, when they are sailing all across Atlantic the ship is not optimized for mission... too much of the carrying capacity spent on supplies, too little left over for freight. The Vinland sailors and shipbuilders know that knarr is poorly fitted for the mission - they will be experimenting to build something better.
 
Not then. In 11th century, the population of Vinland will be smaller than Iceland, and further away.

Not in the 11th century, but from between the late 12th-early 13th centuries when trade in low-volume goods picks-up. In the 11th century, Markland-Vinland's only significant exports would be timber and fur. In the following centuries, Vitis Riparia wine, Tobacco and other foodstuffs would find a market.

Also, given that there's gold in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, that itself could raise interest in settlement of the mainland. True, these weren't discovered until the 19th century, after two hundred years of settlement by the French and British. But, as its so close the the initial Norse settlements around the St Lawrence Gulf, it shouldn't be to long until they come across it.


Iceland and Greenland did export high-value, low-volume exotic goods. Hawks from Iceland, walrus ivory and polar bear and muskox skins from Greenland... Andalusian geographers did not take their dhows far away to explore their origin. If anything they would have questioned the visiting Norse traders at their ports. Or take Ottar - owned a farm in northern Norway. Traded with local hunter-gatherer Sami. Sailed all the way around Nordkap to White Sea, traded with the local Biarmians - but notably did not settle there. Also sailed his own ship the other direction to England - reported his voyages.

If any European geographers want to follow the trade to Vinland, one likely way would be as passengers on Vinlander operated ships.

Vinland/Newfoundland will have a number of autonomous chieftains like Ottar, who may meet at an Althing and even have a supreme chieftain, and if Christian then a Bishop - but who are trading with neighbouring Beothuk on their own and who are sailing far south to St. Lawrence and Atlantic coast to trade with Skraelings, and also in the other direction to Greenland, Iceland - and beyond.

The problem is, that while knarr is fine for medium distance trips - Norway-England, Lofotes-White Sea, Scotland-Iceland, as well as Newfoundland to Greenland, St. Lawrence or Rhode Island, when they are sailing all across Atlantic the ship is not optimized for mission... too much of the carrying capacity spent on supplies, too little left over for freight. The Vinland sailors and shipbuilders know that knarr is poorly fitted for the mission - they will be experimenting to build something better.

So you would have it that the Markland-Vinlanders would be the one's in the position to innovate the designs for ocean-going craft on their end of the trade network?
 
That a very reasonable position and ship design on both sides of the Atlantic will feed off of each other.

Ship designs are one thing but the most important innovation that the Vikings are missing is the innovation of charts and mathematical navigation techniques. With the increasingly large distances involved the dead reckoning that Vikings relied on will be problematic.
 
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