Viking Morroco?

Cuāuhtemōc · Sep 18, 2010

Blackfox5 said:
The Vikings would be after loot, so if they went to Morocco and stayed, they would do so because it profitted them. I think the easiest explanation is that they would want to control the sub-Sahran gold trade. I think it provided something like 80% of the gold at the time. That would push them to dominate the entire Magrheb. Plus there is a lot of wealth in Andalusia to raid. If the Moroccan Norse adopt Islam, I can easily see an effective war leader rallying the local Berber and Arabs to build a new Sultanate. Their initial targets are likely to be existing Muslim powers as they have more wealth, so this may help the Christians. Assuming they are able to build an effective state, we may see Muslim freebooters building little kingdoms everywhere in the spirit of the historical Normans.

Hispano-Norse Muslim states in West Africa!

Dathi THorfinnsson · Sep 23, 2010

MNP said:
But as to religion, again I'll point out that the Muslims population of Iberia prior to 900 was significantly less than 1/3. This is a mistake I made in the original Raptor of Spain. The Muslims were just that much better organized (and concentrated in the cities) so they kept a monopoly of force. The mass conversion happened in the 10th century. If the vikings beat Cordoba in the 870-880s it's possible they'll experience a religious split, some Christian, some Muslim.

But we're talking Morroco here. Are you saying that wasn't solidly Muslim?

Cuāuhtemōc · Sep 23, 2010

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
But we're talking Morroco here. Are you saying that wasn't solidly Muslim?

It was not.

Anja · Sep 26, 2010

Sa'id Mohammed said:
Another question is how the influence of vessels like the dhow would influence the evolution of the Norse long-boats for this mixed culture.

How about a lateen rigged longboat? Best rig available on a sophisticated hull?

Cuāuhtemōc · Sep 27, 2010

anja said:
How about a lateen rigged longboat? Best rig available on a sophisticated hull?

I was thinking about something on a larger scale. I can see a Norse-Nekor kingdom end up being a mainly maritime power.

MNP · Sep 27, 2010

Sa'id Mohammed said:
It was not.

Not until the Almoravids anyhow. Idrisids made Islam stick in the region and built infrastructure, but it was the Almoravids that made made the whole territory of modern Morocco Islamic forever.

As for your question on ships I rather think the adoption of Islamic navigation instruments would be a huge change. The Norse didn't have any (or very primitive) navigation instruments IIRC, they just used the stars.

Cuāuhtemōc · Sep 27, 2010

MNP said:
Not until the Almoravids anyhow. Idrisids made Islam stick in the region and built infrastructure, but it was the Almoravids that made made the whole territory of modern Morocco Islamic forever.

As for your question on ships I rather think the adoption of Islamic navigation instruments would be a huge change. The Norse didn't have any (or very primitive) navigation instruments IIRC, they just used the stars.

Very true.

The Norse-Moors would've adapted.

Tobit · Sep 27, 2010

MNP said:
Not until the Almoravids anyhow. Idrisids made Islam stick in the region and built infrastructure, but it was the Almoravids that made made the whole territory of modern Morocco Islamic forever.

As for your question on ships I rather think the adoption of Islamic navigation instruments would be a huge change. The Norse didn't have any (or very primitive) navigation instruments IIRC, they just used the stars.

Besides the instruments, the mathematics and the number system would have to be adopted. Those types of changes take along time, I don't see the Norse landing picking up the best of Arab navigation and shipbuilding and taking off for Florida.

Cuāuhtemōc · Sep 27, 2010

Tobit said:
Besides the instruments, the mathematics and the number system would have to be adopted. Those types of changes take along time, I don't see the Norse landing picking up the best of Arab navigation and shipbuilding and taking off for Florida.

I agree. I would say it would take a generation or two for the Norse to eventually adapt to these changes.

MNP · Sep 27, 2010

Tobit said:
Besides the instruments, the mathematics and the number system would have to be adopted. Those types of changes take along time, I don't see the Norse landing picking up the best of Arab navigation and shipbuilding and taking off for Florida.

Well thinking of long term changes rather than the first generation.