Vijayanagara Ascendant- a strong South India

From the 14th to the 16th C, the Empire of Vijayanagara was the dominant power in South India. It provided a strong defence against the encroaching Deccan sultanates and established relatively centralised rule in South India.

However, at the Battle of Talikota in 1565, the Vijayanagaran army suffered unprecedented casualties against an (also unprecedented) united army of the Deccan sultanates. The victory has been attributed to the sultanate's more effective use of cannon.

More importantly, the Maharaja, Rama Raya was captured and beheaded. As a result, the retreating Vijayanagari army had no effective central leadership, allowing the Sultanates to seize the initiative and sack the capital, Vijayanagar. Though Vijayanagara survived for a century more, with the maharajas ruling from another capital, the empire slowly fell apart into vassal kingdoms which very soon became vassals in name only.

Where can we go with South India if we avoid Talikota? The Portuguese already have their colony in Goa which means we have potential for European influence.
 
Basically you need Vijayanagara to adopt cannon and centralize beyond what it was IOTL. It has to the potential to defeat the Deccan sultanates and unite much of souhern India, if this happes, IMO.
 
Basically you need Vijayanagara to adopt cannon and centralize beyond what it was IOTL. It has to the potential to defeat the Deccan sultanates and unite much of souhern India, if this happes, IMO.

I'm thinking some judicious contact with Portuguese gunners. I figure the centralisation will come with victory. If Vijayanagar can pull off a reverse Talikota i.e. breaking a united sultanates army and sacking the Deccan, I figure the Maharaja who can pull this off might well be able to use the prestige gained from this to more firmly centralise South India under Vijayanagar.
 
The defeat of the Deccan Sultanates might just mean the Europeans switch their focus and try to gain ports further north.

Alternatively though Aurangzeb himself might be butterflied away, an expansionist Mughal ruler would find it easier to seize the defeated and decaying Deccan Sultanates giving the empire a firmer footing in southern India, perhaps leading to a more stable 2-state situation in India locking out european gains...
 
The defeat of the Deccan Sultanates might just mean the Europeans switch their focus and try to gain ports further north.

Alternatively though Aurangzeb himself might be butterflied away, an expansionist Mughal ruler would find it easier to seize the defeated and decaying Deccan Sultanates giving the empire a firmer footing in southern India, perhaps leading to a more stable 2-state situation in India locking out european gains...

I don't know about locking out European gains totally- the Portuguese already had Goa- but you're right in that you could see a situation more like that of China with Europeans given the right to run trading ports but without outright military invasion of India. Alternatively, Bengal might become the prime area for European colonies (as it did with the British).

Also, if a stable two state situation develops, with the Mughals north of the Deccan and Vijayanagara south of it, I think there's interesting potential for a maritime Vijayanagara.
 
I think there's interesting potential for a maritime Vijayanagara.

A maritime Vijayanagar is going to be really tough to pull off: is there an example of a non-European navy defeating a European navy outside of sheltered waters from the 16th century until 1905? Especially when its going to have a late start, i.e., the Portuguese and Dutch and everyone else are already going to have fleets, already have the technological advantage. The market's been broken into, and while it is a cool idea, the only effect of a Vijayanagar naval victory will be an invasion from the north when the Europeans bribe the Mughals to keep their trade routes safe.
 
so, if a stable two state situation develops, with the Mughals north of the Deccan and Vijayanagara south of it, I think there's interesting potential for a maritime Vijayanagara.

Well my reading off it is that Vijayanagara the state wasn't very interested in maritime expansion, it was a net exporter of many goods so traders are more likly to come to it, plus it has to watch for land threats and keep its vassals under control. I'd imagine it certianly be influential in West Asia South East Asia, but probably more interested in gaining power in the Hindu regions to the north.
 
Well my reading off it is that Vijayanagara the state wasn't very interested in maritime expansion, it was a net exporter of many goods so traders are more likly to come to it, plus it has to watch for land threats and keep its vassals under control. I'd imagine it certianly be influential in West Asia South East Asia, but probably more interested in gaining power in the Hindu regions to the north.

True enough but perhaps in the form of private enterprise? Or at least to the extent of defending it's coastline effectively in a way the smaller South Indian polities were unable to do?
 
True enough but perhaps in the form of private enterprise? Or at least to the extent of defending it's coastline effectively in a way the smaller South Indian polities were unable to do?

There is a difference between maritime and naval, and I think while the latter is impossible, the former might be doable. Vijayanagar could possibly defend its coasts if it was a centralised state with an efective military (There is a funny little book called 'Kings of Albion' that revolves around the idea of getting European gunners to India). I can't see how they would be able to defeat the Europeans at sea, but with well-fortified ports and reasonably generous trade concessions, they wouldn't need to. Trade, on the other hand, can continue to be carried in native ships even with Europeans in the picture. The Portuguese probably wouldn't be able to build up their convoy system under these circumstances, which would leave plentry of room for private enterprise, especially in the vacuum left by decreasing Chinese and Egyptian trade activities. 'Country Ships' might mean Vijayanagari craft plying the routes between East Africa, India and Malaysia. Not the makings of a thalassocracy, but perhaps of an expartiate Indian trader class like the one the Chinese built up across their seas?
 
Not the makings of a thalassocracy, but perhaps of an expartiate Indian trader class like the one the Chinese built up across their seas?

That does sound very plausible with Hindu a hindu merchent class underpining whomever comes out on top in Indonesia and the Swahali coast. (Happily imagines a Vijayanagara...n? princeling pulling a Benovsky in Madagascar ;) )

I don't know about locking out European gains totally- the Portuguese already had Goa- but you're right in that you could see a situation more like that of China with Europeans given the right to run trading ports but without outright military invasion of India. Alternatively, Bengal might become the prime area for European colonies (as it did with the British).

Regarding Bengal, whilst many trading ports for europeans are likely it was a rich and important and vastly profitable Subah for the Mughals and they are unlikly to part with it if they do remain a coherant state. I'd say the weak link in a two state India would be in Gondwana, with Vijayanagara pushing from the south and the Mughals from the north it would be easier for a European power to seize the coast/form a puppet state.
 
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