Wouldn't Bisnaga conquer/vassalize Ceylon to pre-empt a European power from using it as a base to oppose Bisngaga?
Vijayanagara Ascendant. A South Indian TL
- Thread starter Flocculencio
- Start date
Flocculencio
Donor
The problem are that there are very little incentiment to trade with Europeans in Europe foremost European will come to India, second sailing in the (Northen) Indian Ocean are much more friendly than the Atlantic. Beside European ship couldn't just be copied, they was the place where the first elements of European technological superiority first shown itself. To build them demanded masters in the field, a strong urban (early) industry and the necessary infrastructure. To adopt European arms and tactics are nothing to the adoption of European maritime technology, and the short term and medium term (as in the first few centuries) benefits are much smaller. Of course if Bisnagap) build them with the purpose to trade in the Indian Ocean, well it become much more possible and could lay the groundwork for adoption of European technics, the problem are that the benefits too are smaller, and it would bring them in competion with some hostile Europeans and Arabs.
I think Bisnaga would be better off focusing on centralising their Empire at first. One of Europes biggest strengths was in the end more efficient centralised states, just as much as technological superiority. Of course that lead to Bisnagas biggest weakness the Caste system. In Europe social mobility was a important factor in building up the modern state (and outside royalty the mobility was much bigger than people usual think), it ensured a bigger recruitment base both for the adminstration, army and bourgeois. While I can see Bisnaga doing quite well up to 1800 with the Caste system after that it will become a heavier and heavier chain to carry.
I think centralisation will help a lot in overcoming the caste system. In different parts of India, different castes have different levels of prestige. For example, in much of India, non-Hindus were considered casteless- in Kerala, however, they were considered an upper-middle caste. This was because the Hindu upper castes who formed the governing and military classes could not gain revenue directly from the Hindu peasant castes as this revenue would be polluted. Thus, the Orthodox landowners obtained revenue from their sharecroppers and passed this on in taxes and tribute to the governing castes. By passing through the hands of a Christian the upper castes felt that the pollution was removed. This wasn't the case anywhere else in India.
In any case having to deal with all the different caste prejudices from the various parts of the Imperial domains will, I think, given a century or two actually help to eliminate it's excesses as people start to shed these issues purely for the sake of convenience. If I'm a Tamil administrator summoned to the Imperial court I can't piss off my new boss in the Ministry of Agriculture simply because he's a Telegu from a caste considered lower in the Tamil country but higher in his own region.
Flocculencio
Donor
Ceylon isn't unified though- the Hindu Tamils of Jaffna may well come under Imperial sovereignty but the Buddhist Sinhalese will most likely resist.
Flocculencio
Donor
The Kerala War- Part 2
Cochin had never been extensively fortified and soon fell to the beseigers, d'Olivera and his garrison evacuating by sea. Moving up the Malabar coast Vijayanagari forces liberated Calicut and finally Mangalore. Maharaja Krishnadevaraya made an attempt to push even further towards Goa but found himself bogged down in a series of inconclusive battles. Goa itself was fortified to the latest European standards and with the arrival of the rains, the Maharaja was reluctantly forced to allow the Portuguese their original enclave.
The most important effect of the Kerala War was the incorporation of the Malayalee states into the Empire. Cochin and Malabar having experienced almost outright conquest by Portugal eagerly submitted to Imperial protection, their Rajas accepting sinecures as Imperial nobles and agreeing to share power with Imperial governors. As the only unconquered kingdom, however, Travanacore demanded more recognition. They argued that despite their defeat at Allapuzha, they had delayed d'Olivera from being able to secure the Pallakad Gap, thereby giving the advantage of ground to the Vijayanagari army. In recognition of this, the Maharaja gave Travanacore more autonomy and wed his heir to the senior niece of the Raja of Travanacore- due to the matrilineal inheritance laws of the Kerala Hindus this meant that the product of this union would be both the future Maharaja of Vijayanagar and the legitimate ruler of Travanacore*.
With the new influx of another ethnic group following a variety of religions, the administration of the Empire clearly needed a revamp. Krishnadevaraya instituted a Council of Elders, drawn from the senior members of the various upper castes throughout the Empire. For ease of administration the Muslims, Jews and Christians in various regions were deemed to be castes of their own and represented by senior religious leaders.
*A note of explanation- in the Hindu Malalayalee aristocracy, inheritance passed through the female line. Thus the Raja's son wouldn't inherit the throne but his sister's son would. In the next generation the sister's son's heir would be his own nephew i.e. in this case the son of his sister who was married to the Maharaja.
Cochin had never been extensively fortified and soon fell to the beseigers, d'Olivera and his garrison evacuating by sea. Moving up the Malabar coast Vijayanagari forces liberated Calicut and finally Mangalore. Maharaja Krishnadevaraya made an attempt to push even further towards Goa but found himself bogged down in a series of inconclusive battles. Goa itself was fortified to the latest European standards and with the arrival of the rains, the Maharaja was reluctantly forced to allow the Portuguese their original enclave.
The most important effect of the Kerala War was the incorporation of the Malayalee states into the Empire. Cochin and Malabar having experienced almost outright conquest by Portugal eagerly submitted to Imperial protection, their Rajas accepting sinecures as Imperial nobles and agreeing to share power with Imperial governors. As the only unconquered kingdom, however, Travanacore demanded more recognition. They argued that despite their defeat at Allapuzha, they had delayed d'Olivera from being able to secure the Pallakad Gap, thereby giving the advantage of ground to the Vijayanagari army. In recognition of this, the Maharaja gave Travanacore more autonomy and wed his heir to the senior niece of the Raja of Travanacore- due to the matrilineal inheritance laws of the Kerala Hindus this meant that the product of this union would be both the future Maharaja of Vijayanagar and the legitimate ruler of Travanacore*.
With the new influx of another ethnic group following a variety of religions, the administration of the Empire clearly needed a revamp. Krishnadevaraya instituted a Council of Elders, drawn from the senior members of the various upper castes throughout the Empire. For ease of administration the Muslims, Jews and Christians in various regions were deemed to be castes of their own and represented by senior religious leaders.
*A note of explanation- in the Hindu Malalayalee aristocracy, inheritance passed through the female line. Thus the Raja's son wouldn't inherit the throne but his sister's son would. In the next generation the sister's son's heir would be his own nephew i.e. in this case the son of his sister who was married to the Maharaja.
Last edited:
I see Bisnaga looking at this and other problems with the Portuguese going bck to DaGama burning Indian Merchantmen, and deciding they need a Navy.
Bisnaga has the Shipyards, and trained ship building personnel. All that is needed is some captured Ships to Imitate. Pre Blueprints, ships were built from Models.
They also have Seamen, and Artillery. It will take several years to put it all together, but 1650 India has a lot less to overcome/learn than 1850 Japan did.
I am wondering what effect a technological Equal non European Power, will have on the development of Race Relations.
This is the period when the first Africans arrived in the US, thro they had been in SAmerica for several years.
Most Davidian Indian Immigrants got lumped in with Blacks in Europe and the Americas.
Here whe [will] have a Strong Black Skinned Power, able to treat with the Europeans on a equal Field.
Flocculencio
Donor
Actually from what I've heard Indians weren't lumped in with Blacks. The whole North Indian= fair, South Indian= dark is a bit of a generalisation. The rule of thumb tends to be that the higher the caste the fairer the skin on average (it's a trait that was selected for among those who had the ability to be fussy about picking and choosing brides). If you look at North Indians and South Indians skin colour isn't really the main differentiating factor- it tends to be things like bone structure and so forth.
Random North and South Indians taken off the net:
Flocculencio
Donor
Re maritime endeavours: the Telegu and Kannada heartland of Vijayanagar didn't have much of a maritime culture but the Malayalees of Kerala and to a lesser extent the Tamils certainly did.
They'd had a local industry capable of building dhows and there would be the occasional Chinese trading junk putting in to Cochin which gives a potential template for larger craft.
Any ship experts around? Can a dhow make a suitable weapons platform? Just something effective enough for shore patrols at first.
I think I like the idea of Vijayanagar possibly adopting a junk-based tradition. Those can certainly be scaled up for oceangoing ships.
Edit: Sniffing around online there are some tantalising references to "junks of India"...
They'd had a local industry capable of building dhows and there would be the occasional Chinese trading junk putting in to Cochin which gives a potential template for larger craft.
Any ship experts around? Can a dhow make a suitable weapons platform? Just something effective enough for shore patrols at first.
I think I like the idea of Vijayanagar possibly adopting a junk-based tradition. Those can certainly be scaled up for oceangoing ships.
Edit: Sniffing around online there are some tantalising references to "junks of India"...
Flocculencio
A couple of thoughts.
a) Definitely agree that Bisnaga will need its own navy. Ultimately developed and supported totally internally. However could they initially find a rival to the Portugese who would give some advice/support. [Probably the Dutch are the best bet, provided that Bisnaga don't let them get their foot into the door too much].
b) One option with getting around the caste probably a bit and its being used to a degree in the trick with taxes you mention, is to make use of the non-Hindu groups [Muslims, Jews and Orthodox Christians]. Also helps keep them loyal as they have a tie in to the empire and they can balance each other out to a degree. However the down side of this is that if they start getting too successful they will incite resentment, both of them and possibly of 'new ideas'.
Anyway, looking interesting and hoping to see more.
Thanks
Steve
A couple of thoughts.
a) Definitely agree that Bisnaga will need its own navy. Ultimately developed and supported totally internally. However could they initially find a rival to the Portugese who would give some advice/support. [Probably the Dutch are the best bet, provided that Bisnaga don't let them get their foot into the door too much].
b) One option with getting around the caste probably a bit and its being used to a degree in the trick with taxes you mention, is to make use of the non-Hindu groups [Muslims, Jews and Orthodox Christians]. Also helps keep them loyal as they have a tie in to the empire and they can balance each other out to a degree. However the down side of this is that if they start getting too successful they will incite resentment, both of them and possibly of 'new ideas'.
Anyway, looking interesting and hoping to see more.
Thanks
Steve
Thinking about colonisation in the east I think this is my best guess assuming limited butterflies in Europe (meaning an as succesful Dutch rebellion and a Dutch-Portuguese war, etc).
With the Portuguese position weakened in India, it probably means a weakened Portuguese position in the rest of Asia. OTL after the Portuguese Dutch war they basicly had their Indian possesions left and Timor and (I believe) Flores. With the loss of India their position might become so weak they might even lose Timor and Flores.
The Dutch are the colonisers who would profit most from a centralised, rich southern India. Their succes story in the east was because they decided to trade their goods from Indonesia in the rest of Asia. Just like they traded with China and Japan OTL, they will no doubt trade with Vijayanagara. Ceylon will no doubt become a very important Dutch colony (assuming they are able to steal it from the Portuguese like OTL).
With southern India out of reach, the other colonial powers will focus on Bengal, mainly the British and French. Also we might see increased activity in Indonesia. Maybe we will see a British Sumatra.
Indo China and Burma were both colonised relatively late. Maybe with southern India closed there will be an earlier interest in that region. With less room in the area, I think a small scale battle (as in economically not militairy) will be fought in Asia. And only few colonial powers will remain. If the Dutch manage to gain Indonesia, I suspect they will stay. If the English manage to gain the Bengal they will stay. I think the French might be succesful in kicking one of them out of Asia, but I am afraid Portugal and Denmar are both too small.
With the Portuguese position weakened in India, it probably means a weakened Portuguese position in the rest of Asia. OTL after the Portuguese Dutch war they basicly had their Indian possesions left and Timor and (I believe) Flores. With the loss of India their position might become so weak they might even lose Timor and Flores.
The Dutch are the colonisers who would profit most from a centralised, rich southern India. Their succes story in the east was because they decided to trade their goods from Indonesia in the rest of Asia. Just like they traded with China and Japan OTL, they will no doubt trade with Vijayanagara. Ceylon will no doubt become a very important Dutch colony (assuming they are able to steal it from the Portuguese like OTL).
With southern India out of reach, the other colonial powers will focus on Bengal, mainly the British and French. Also we might see increased activity in Indonesia. Maybe we will see a British Sumatra.
Indo China and Burma were both colonised relatively late. Maybe with southern India closed there will be an earlier interest in that region. With less room in the area, I think a small scale battle (as in economically not militairy) will be fought in Asia. And only few colonial powers will remain. If the Dutch manage to gain Indonesia, I suspect they will stay. If the English manage to gain the Bengal they will stay. I think the French might be succesful in kicking one of them out of Asia, but I am afraid Portugal and Denmar are both too small.
Flocculencio
Donor
A lot of good points but just one issue:
Just off the top of my head- the Dutch traded Indonesian spices, tin, cloth and the like with China and Japan but these are essentially the same products South India produces itself. Although, of course, the Dutch could try to get a monopoly on the Chinese trade and trade Chinese goods back to India which would work.
Just off the top of my head- the Dutch traded Indonesian spices, tin, cloth and the like with China and Japan but these are essentially the same products South India produces itself. Although, of course, the Dutch could try to get a monopoly on the Chinese trade and trade Chinese goods back to India which would work.
Flocculencio
Donor
1640- The Vijayanagari-Dutch Treaty
As relations with Portugual had been deteriorating, a new European power had made it's arrival in the Indian Ocean. The Dutch, as these newcomers called themselves seemed less interested in religion than the Portuguese. While Portugal had blocked their attempts to set up trading missions in Cochin and Calicut they had done so in Southern Ceylon and had captured the Eastern port of Malacca from Portugal.
Now, with the Portuguese driven from Imperial territory, the Dutch sent in a mission requesting the right to set up a factory at Cochin. This was granted, but only along the lines that Vijayanagar would stick to in any future dealings with Western powers. The Bisnaya-Dutch Treaty, as it came to be known in the West stated that the Dutch would have the right to set up factories in Vijayanagari ports but with no right to extra-territoriality. They would come under the authority of the local governor just as any other foreign traders might. They were to be allowed a certain number of guards for defence, but not an outright garrison. They were to exercise no governmental authority. Missionaries could operate freely from specified churches which were to be licensed by the government but were not to attempt to proselytise among the Orthodox, Muslims or higher caste Hindus.
As relations with Portugual had been deteriorating, a new European power had made it's arrival in the Indian Ocean. The Dutch, as these newcomers called themselves seemed less interested in religion than the Portuguese. While Portugal had blocked their attempts to set up trading missions in Cochin and Calicut they had done so in Southern Ceylon and had captured the Eastern port of Malacca from Portugal.
Now, with the Portuguese driven from Imperial territory, the Dutch sent in a mission requesting the right to set up a factory at Cochin. This was granted, but only along the lines that Vijayanagar would stick to in any future dealings with Western powers. The Bisnaya-Dutch Treaty, as it came to be known in the West stated that the Dutch would have the right to set up factories in Vijayanagari ports but with no right to extra-territoriality. They would come under the authority of the local governor just as any other foreign traders might. They were to be allowed a certain number of guards for defence, but not an outright garrison. They were to exercise no governmental authority. Missionaries could operate freely from specified churches which were to be licensed by the government but were not to attempt to proselytise among the Orthodox, Muslims or higher caste Hindus.
Well the Portuguese brought in velvet and finished goods - the Dutch could do likewise, and probably had a higher qaulity of mechanical and manufactured products to boot. Plus there's always gold and silver, considering the profit to be made from reselling Indian goods, much like in the OTL early Mughal trade.
On the China-Japan trade, they monopolised it quite quickly and there's certainly porcelains, variaties of tea, and there a number of spices South India doesn't produce itself. Plus, while India did produce its own silk, and was a major exporter of high quality finished products, its production was insufficent to meet demand and and there was considerable market for imports from China early and Central Asia and China later on (according to 'Silk and Empire').
Flocculencio
Donor
Good point- so manufactured goods and Chinese trade goods to India along with some spices in exchange for sugar, spice and everything nic...I mean cotton, most likely.
Although with a nascent arms industry beginning to grow in Vijayanagar I'm wondering if manufacturing abilities will begin to rise too...
Flocculencio
Donor
I'm modelling it on what happened in Kerala in OTL with the Portuguese.
They demanded that the Syrian Orthodox place themselves under authority of the Pope instead of Antioch and basically forced them to do this. They tried to cut them off from Antioch by murdering any replacement bishops who were despatched by the Patriarch to India. After about fifty years a faction of the Orthodox had had enough and led an uprising, freeing themselves from Portuguese control. This led to a schism- the Syrian Orthodox who agreed to remain under Roman jurisdiction (basically as a Uniate Church) became known as Syrian Catholics, the ones who didn't retained the name Syrian Orthodox (the breaking of contact with Antioch led to later schisms in the Orthodox between those who chose to follow ordained Indian bishops and those who still sought bishops form Antioch).
However, while all this was going on, the Portuguese also started missionary work among the low-caste fisherfolk many of whom converted to Roman Catholicism. To this day they form a Roman Catholic caste and in Kerala the Roman Catholics are seen as a socially inferior caste because of it. Syrian Orthodox consider Syrian Catholics to be equals more or less and there's free intermarriage between the communities but will not marry a Malayalee Roman Catholic or if it does happen it's a serious loss of face (this doesn't extend to non-Malayalee Roman Catholics, though- its purely caste based).
So yeah, the moral is that the higher caste Indians of whatever religion have little social incentive to convert so the lower castes are fair game since they'll be considered low caste anyway.
Flocculencio
Donor
1642: extract from the Diary of Edmund Molesworth
...it wasse with much relief ande joie thatt we ſaw on the fifteenth of Iune in the Year of Our Lord ſixteen hundred and fortie-two that wee at laſte made lande-falle on the fabl'd ſhores of the Yndies. Our lucke was of the beſte for we had hit on the greate porte of this region of Malabarre, nameley the city of Coe-Chinne portus primus to the land of the Emperor or Maha-Rajah of Bijaya...
...wee noted as we beat toward the ſtraites that guarde the mouthe of that moſte fortunate harbour a ware-house of the Hollanders, which Facte we gleaned from their Flagge proudley display'd. The fisher-men who had row'd their boats paſt us had hailed us in a barbarous half Portugee pigeon butte our attencion was engag'd by a ſhippe of the type called by the Arabs a dhowe flyinge the banner of Bijaya which is a banner of golde with a boare blazoned thereon. She was arm'd with falconets mount'd broad-side and tho' ſhe was ſwifte and well-handl'd ſhe look't notte a match for our trusty galleon Hart of Golde. The harbour-maſter on board hail'd us to our great ſurprize in paſſable Latin- atte a later time we learn'd that the Bijaya had glean'd thatte this was the common tongue of Europe and had learnt it from Popish prieſts of whom there are manie in the Countrie...
...it wasse with much relief ande joie thatt we ſaw on the fifteenth of Iune in the Year of Our Lord ſixteen hundred and fortie-two that wee at laſte made lande-falle on the fabl'd ſhores of the Yndies. Our lucke was of the beſte for we had hit on the greate porte of this region of Malabarre, nameley the city of Coe-Chinne portus primus to the land of the Emperor or Maha-Rajah of Bijaya...
...wee noted as we beat toward the ſtraites that guarde the mouthe of that moſte fortunate harbour a ware-house of the Hollanders, which Facte we gleaned from their Flagge proudley display'd. The fisher-men who had row'd their boats paſt us had hailed us in a barbarous half Portugee pigeon butte our attencion was engag'd by a ſhippe of the type called by the Arabs a dhowe flyinge the banner of Bijaya which is a banner of golde with a boare blazoned thereon. She was arm'd with falconets mount'd broad-side and tho' ſhe was ſwifte and well-handl'd ſhe look't notte a match for our trusty galleon Hart of Golde. The harbour-maſter on board hail'd us to our great ſurprize in paſſable Latin- atte a later time we learn'd that the Bijaya had glean'd thatte this was the common tongue of Europe and had learnt it from Popish prieſts of whom there are manie in the Countrie...
Flocculencio
Donor
Basically I'm going to use Molesworth as the first Western POV of what Vijayanagar (or Bijaya as he calls it) is like in the mid-17th C. So far we can see that they're trying to field a more convincing naval arm but cannon-armed dhows are still too small to take on galleons. I'm still toying with the idea of bringing junks into the picture- scaling up a design they would be somewhat familiar with seems a more likely path than attempting to catch up with the European maritime revolution: dhows to carracks to galleons and so on.
The Vijayanagari have seen English traders before- they've been around since roughly the same time the Dutch have but due to English focus being more on the New World there haven't been any formal treaties signed. Molesworth's shtick is that he's bearing letters from King Charles' court to the Maharaja of Bijaya to get in on a similar formalised deal to the Dutch (the English have been trading freely as have other Europeans but they're beginning to get worried that the Dutch might pull some fantastic deal and get a monopoly so they want trading rights in writing). Lets see what else he tells us about Bijaya.
Also I'm getting a bit tired of the term Maharaja- it doesn't seem grand enough for the ruler of what is basically one of the richest and most populous empires in the world (I'm guessing on par to whoever's running the Indo-Gangetic valley and second to China). I think the term Chakravartin will do nicely. Maybe I'll have them assume that after a particularly great triumph.
The Vijayanagari have seen English traders before- they've been around since roughly the same time the Dutch have but due to English focus being more on the New World there haven't been any formal treaties signed. Molesworth's shtick is that he's bearing letters from King Charles' court to the Maharaja of Bijaya to get in on a similar formalised deal to the Dutch (the English have been trading freely as have other Europeans but they're beginning to get worried that the Dutch might pull some fantastic deal and get a monopoly so they want trading rights in writing). Lets see what else he tells us about Bijaya.
Also I'm getting a bit tired of the term Maharaja- it doesn't seem grand enough for the ruler of what is basically one of the richest and most populous empires in the world (I'm guessing on par to whoever's running the Indo-Gangetic valley and second to China). I think the term Chakravartin will do nicely. Maybe I'll have them assume that after a particularly great triumph.