Vietnamized America Part One

I've been thinking about this timeline for a long time, so here it is. Constructive criticism only, please.

1865: Here's the POD. While charging at Union forces, Robert E. Lee is shot in the heart. With his death goes the honor of the south. The southern soldiers go into forests and plant booby traps. Thousands of Union soldiers are killed by these traps. One good thing arises from the south not being defeated this early: Lincoln is never assassinated.

1868: Jefferson Davis surrenders the entire Confederate army. Lincoln decides he will not pursue a third term and retires to Illinois. The winner of the Presidental election is Ulysses S. Grant, who's proposed policy is an unilateral strategy against the Confederate guerillas who refuse to surrender for Davis.

1869: Grant is inaugarated. The various guerilla factions decide that Grant will be a threat and unite. The terrorist group's name is the Sons of the South. Their symbol is a bloody Confederate flag.

1871: Grant is shot by a Confederate sniper. His death marks the first time a US president has been assassinated. His successor, Schuyler Colfax, declares a war on the Sons of the South.

1872: SOS attacks on black voter registration areas causes many blacks to not vote in the election. This costs the Republicans the election to Grover Cleveland. This leads to 32 years of Democratic rule.

1873: After Cleveland's inaugaration, Cleveland gives a stirring address that declares the bloodshed of the Civil War over. Soldiers are rapidly pulled out of the south.

1876: Due to his pacifist policies, Cleveland wins the election in a landslide. Meanwhile, the SOS gains power.

1879: The lightbulb is invented. This brings Thomas Edison to the attention of America... and the Sons of the South.

1892: Shortly after inventing the Kinetograph, Edison is assassinated by SOS members for selling electical companies to the north.

1904: Theodore Roosevelt says he will finally take down the Sons of the South and wins the election for the Republican party.

1906: First assassination attempt on Roosevelt.

1911: Second assassination attempt on Roosevelt.

1912: Roosevelt leaves the presidency on bad terms with the south. Consequently, Woodrow Wilson becomes president.

Part Two to come later.
 
ANV become guerillas

What about as another possible POD, if the ANV had actually decided by the time of Appomattox to disperse and conduct guerilla warfare against Union forces ? Would such a situation, which IIRC Lee had considered, have brought about a sorta Vietnamised America ?
 
Robert Sullivan said:
I've been thinking about this timeline for a long time, so here it is. Constructive criticism only, please.

1865: Here's the POD. While charging at Union forces, Robert E. Lee is shot in the heart. With his death goes the honor of the south. The southern soldiers go into forests and plant booby traps. Thousands of Union soldiers are killed by these traps. One good thing arises from the south not being defeated this early: Lincoln is never assassinated.

1868: Jefferson Davis surrenders the entire Confederate army. Lincoln decides he will not pursue a third term and retires to Illinois. The winner of the Presidental election is Ulysses S. Grant, who's proposed policy is an unilateral strategy against the Confederate guerillas who refuse to surrender for Davis.

1869: Grant is inaugarated. The various guerilla factions decide that Grant will be a threat and unite. The terrorist group's name is the Sons of the South. Their symbol is a bloody Confederate flag.

1871: Grant is shot by a Confederate sniper. His death marks the first time a US president has been assassinated. His successor, Schuyler Colfax, declares a war on the Sons of the South.

1872: SOS attacks on black voter registration areas causes many blacks to not vote in the election. This costs the Republicans the election to Grover Cleveland. This leads to 32 years of Democratic rule.

1873: After Cleveland's inaugaration, Cleveland gives a stirring address that declares the bloodshed of the Civil War over. Soldiers are rapidly pulled out of the south.

1876: Due to his pacifist policies, Cleveland wins the election in a landslide. Meanwhile, the SOS gains power.

1879: The lightbulb is invented. This brings Thomas Edison to the attention of America... and the Sons of the South.

1892: Shortly after inventing the Kinetograph, Edison is assassinated by SOS members for selling electical companies to the north.

1904: Theodore Roosevelt says he will finally take down the Sons of the South and wins the election for the Republican party.

1906: First assassination attempt on Roosevelt.

1911: Second assassination attempt on Roosevelt.

1912: Roosevelt leaves the presidency on bad terms with the south. Consequently, Woodrow Wilson becomes president.

Part Two to come later.


Not a chance because unlike Vietnam the US HAD to win to be a viable nation-state. Worst comes to worst the Union starts rounding up families and shipping them off to the middle of the desert in Nevada or later to Alaska. Eventually the fighting stops because too many people down south don't want to wind up someplace inhospitble among strangers or the entire population winds up in forsaken areas too far apart to do anything.
 
you know, funny thing. Partisan activities were never on a major scale in occupied areas of the south before 1865.

Why was that, I wonder?

Perhaps because, worst comes to worst, the US would've given the blacks heavy weaponry?
 
Faeelin said:
you know, funny thing. Partisan activities were never on a major scale in occupied areas of the south before 1865.

Why was that, I wonder?

Perhaps because, worst comes to worst, the US would've given the blacks heavy weaponry?


That too, they might well do BOTH.
 
Robert Sullivan wrote:

"I've been thinking about this timeline for a long time, so here it is. Constructive criticism only, please."


Mr. Sullivan,

Sure.

"1879: The lightbulb is invented. This brings Thomas Edison to the attention of America... and the Sons of the South."

"1892: Shortly after inventing the Kinetograph, Edison is assassinated by SOS members for selling electical companies to the north."

Let me see if I understand this... because Edison is selling 'electrical companies' in the North, a group of southern nationalist guerillas kills him? Whatever for? Is the North going to use electricity to fight the SOS? (nice acronym by the way, it can also stand for 'Sacks o' Sh*t').

Back to Edison... Are the SOS afraid of the North's growing industrial strength? Is that why old Thomas gets it? If so, do they try and kill off Carnegie, JP Morgan, Westinghouse, and all the rest? Why was TAE shot?

"1912: Roosevelt leaves the presidency on bad terms with the south. Consequently, Woodrow Wilson becomes president."

Wilson was a southern boy well before Princeton and the governorship of NJ. He lived in both Richmond and North Carolina during the Civil War, father was a preacher. IIRC, he saw the AOP march through Richmond in pursuit of the ANV in '65. You have nationalist guerilla movement operating in the South ala Vietnam and the rest of the nation elects a Southerner to the White House?

You say you've been thinking about this a long time?


Bill
 
I don't like being personally insulted, Mr. Cameron. It gets me down. I don't need that snotty, sarcastic response to a pet project of mine. I'm well aware of President Wilson's southern allegiances, but I said "Roosevelt leaves on bad terms with the south." The south isn't the enemy in this scenario, it's the guerrilla fighters. The south still can vote, and they have a fairly large population. If they were angry, of course they wouldn't vote for another Republican like Roosevelt. They'd vote for a democrat, and even better, a southern democrat. The south was primarily democratic during this time in history before the radical right took over. Wilson would definately be a prime candidate.
 
Robert Sullivan wrote:

"I don't like being personally insulted, Mr. Cameron. It gets me down."


Mr. Sullivan,

I didn't mean to insult you and I apologize if it came across that way.

How about those questions of mine? Why was TAE shot? Did the SOS shoot other inventors/industrialists or similar reasons? Why did Wilson go into politics? Would the same forces that shaped his personality in the OTL be at work in your ATL? Might he be a member of the SOS instead?

You've called this the 'Vietnamization of America'. The use of Vietnam as a description led me to assume (a shocking habit) that the guerillas enjoyed the support of a large portion of the South. Do they? Are are they much more marginal in nature, sort of like a more active on the national politicl scene KKK?

You obviously have thought about this for some time, so you should have some answers.

Again, my apologies.


Bill
 
Regarding the election for Woodrow Wilson, one thing that I am wondering about is what is the population disparity between the North and the South at this time, and also are blacks excercising their right to vote in these elections as that will further limit the power of the South. Wouldn't the continueed terrorist activities of the southern states lead to the likelihood of the northern states rubberstamping any northern candidate as even though the South is not the enemy perception would be that the South cannot police their own and are a breeding ground of guerillas in the making? So why clasp a viper to your bosom? Now if we move to a 3 party system and you split the Northern vote I'd see it happening as it wouldn't be hard to polarize the South behind one of their own.
 
Bill Cameron said:
Robert Sullivan wrote:

"I don't like being personally insulted, Mr. Cameron. It gets me down."


Mr. Sullivan,

I didn't mean to insult you and I apologize if it came across that way.

How about those questions of mine? Why was TAE shot? Did the SOS shoot other inventors/industrialists or similar reasons? Why did Wilson go into politics? Would the same forces that shaped his personality in the OTL be at work in your ATL? Might he be a member of the SOS instead?

You've called this the 'Vietnamization of America'. The use of Vietnam as a description led me to assume (a shocking habit) that the guerillas enjoyed the support of a large portion of the South. Do they? Are are they much more marginal in nature, sort of like a more active on the national politicl scene KKK?

You obviously have thought about this for some time, so you should have some answers.

Again, my apologies.


Bill
Thank you. Also, to answer your questions:

1) Other industrialists, such as Vander Bilt and Ford, were killed, and others, like Carnegie and Rockefeller, were targeted, all for making business deals with the American government.

2) The southern states are rather divided on the issue of the guerillas. None of them officially support the SOS, but there are many who do so unofficially. I can see a number of southern politicians resigning their positions after the north won the war and joining the SOS, but for the most part they support them secretly.

I hope that clears things up.
 
Charlie Foxtrot said:
Regarding the election for Woodrow Wilson, one thing that I am wondering about is what is the population disparity between the North and the South at this time, and also are blacks excercising their right to vote in these elections as that will further limit the power of the South. Wouldn't the continueed terrorist activities of the southern states lead to the likelihood of the northern states rubberstamping any northern candidate as even though the South is not the enemy perception would be that the South cannot police their own and are a breeding ground of guerillas in the making? So why clasp a viper to your bosom? Now if we move to a 3 party system and you split the Northern vote I'd see it happening as it wouldn't be hard to polarize the South behind one of their own.
Well, in this universe, most blacks are afraid to vote, because they're scared of the SOS, who have attacked the places where blacks vote. The SOS virtually caused the end of Reconstruction as we know it in our universe. Also, I believe that a large third party probably would form at this time with a progressive stance, and possibly split the Republican vote, and could indirectly help Wilson into office. A Nader effect.
 
I have to admit the assassination of Edison doesn't seem plausible - unless there was really something more substantial than "selling electrical companies to the North" - were there no sales in the South? What exactly is the economic status of the South anyway?

Also the deal about the SOS attacking black voters - there by leading to 32 years of Democrats in the White House - is also an impossibility. The Republicans will move to protect black voters - not to mention that there is always a turn over of power in politics.

I agree with an earlier comment that this ATL certainly doesn't come anyway near being remotely 'Vietnamized'. Prolonged guerilla war yes, but nothing quite like Vietnam.

What about the settlement of the West? Does the activity of the SOS divert the US Army from pacifying the West or is the SOS considered to be in the same vein as the IRA and Sein Finn and somehow tolerated by the Federal Government? Is the South an occupied land?
 
David S Poepoe said:
I have to admit the assassination of Edison doesn't seem plausible - unless there was really something more substantial than "selling electrical companies to the North" - were there no sales in the South? What exactly is the economic status of the South anyway?

Also the deal about the SOS attacking black voters - there by leading to 32 years of Democrats in the White House - is also an impossibility. The Republicans will move to protect black voters - not to mention that there is always a turn over of power in politics.

I agree with an earlier comment that this ATL certainly doesn't come anyway near being remotely 'Vietnamized'. Prolonged guerilla war yes, but nothing quite like Vietnam.

What about the settlement of the West? Does the activity of the SOS divert the US Army from pacifying the West or is the SOS considered to be in the same vein as the IRA and Sein Finn and somehow tolerated by the Federal Government? Is the South an occupied land?
Let me clear things up:

1) Edison is selling only in the north because the south is far too dangerous. Also, it would be very bad publicity for Edison to be selling in the south. By selling to the federal government, he would gain publicity as a patriot.

2) The south's economic status is still fairly good. The SOS isn't attacking companies in the south unless they're owned by northerners or blacks. Also, even though they're finding it difficult to sell to the north, they're still able to sell to Britain, which hasn't yet become an ally of the US, and to Mexico, which is still steaming over the Mexican/American war.

3) I never said the Republicans weren't trying to protect the blacks. Rather, they're trying, but it's too little, too late. Most don't believe the government can help them and just stay away from the polls.

4) What do you mean not like Vietnam? Terrible guerrilla war lasting for decades in a difficult environment? Sounds a whole lot like Vietnam.

5) The government is trying to pacify the west, but has its hands tied up with the SOS.

6) The south alternates between being occupied and not being occupied. It all depends on who's president at the time. It also depends on the intensity of SOS activity.

7) The SOS is somewhat tolerated by some presidents, but for the most part is a major issue for the country. The Republicans are split on the issue. On one side are the progressives, who think that we should ignore the SOS and concentrate on other issues like the poor, and the Radical Republicans, which exist in OTL, who think that the SOS should be stopped as revenge for the amount of Union deaths in the civil war.
 
Robert Sullivan said:
Let me clear things up:

4) What do you mean not like Vietnam? Terrible guerrilla war lasting for decades in a difficult environment? Sounds a whole lot like Vietnam.

7) The SOS is somewhat tolerated by some presidents, but for the most part is a major issue for the country. The Republicans are split on the issue. On one side are the progressives, who think that we should ignore the SOS and concentrate on other issues like the poor, and the Radical Republicans, which exist in OTL, who think that the SOS should be stopped as revenge for the amount of Union deaths in the civil war.

Its not like Vietnam in that it appears more to be a police action - or the first stages of the development of a police state. What difficult environment?! Urban fighting? Shootouts in the bayous of Louisiana? The economic and political difference between this ATL and Vietnam is great.

#7 is a piss poor answer, following the Civil War the Federal Government is not going to tolerate any actions that even hit a challenging Federal authority or promoting states rights. The SOS is a terrorist organization which has been killing promenant industrialists in the North - the Radical Republicans will be elected - and kept in office since they are the ones with a coherent answer to end all hostilities. Seems a little bit like it was snatched from today's headlines.
 

Straha

Banned
David S Poepoe said:
Its not like Vietnam in that it appears more to be a police action - or the first stages of the development of a police state. What difficult environment?! Urban fighting? Shootouts in the bayous of Louisiana? The economic and political difference between this ATL and Vietnam is great.

#7 is a piss poor answer, following the Civil War the Federal Government is not going to tolerate any actions that even hit a challenging Federal authority or promoting states rights. The SOS is a terrorist organization which has been killing promenant industrialists in the North - the Radical Republicans will be elected - and kept in office since they are the ones with a coherent answer to end all hostilities. Seems a little bit like it was snatched from today's headlines.
you agree that this ATL is highly implausible?
 
David S Poepoe said:
I do agree with you. Tho I would say that it started out with possibilities.
Let me make this as clear as possible: this timeline isn't just plausible, it's almost what happened in OTL. If not for Robert E. Lee, we'd all be fighting this war. Please don't criticize what you don't know. I've answered your questions, now take'em or get out.
 
Totally implausible. Even if a guerilla movement were to appear, it wouldn't last for decades. This would suppose that generation after generation of guerillas were being trained and grown and that the Union couldn't do anything about it. If they could tame the Wild West, they could tame the Wild South. Furthermore, it suggests that these guerillas are being funded by some outside state, and that's a butterfly of far greater implication than just guerilla warfare.
 
Top