Vietnamese force structure

[La Rouge Beret]

In my 'A Tale of Vietnam' TL I have an independent unified Vietnam from 1946 onwards. My TL can be read via the hyperlink at the bottom of my signature. The problem that I face is reconciling a force structure that would be appropriate to their threat environment, without simultaneously destroying their economy.

So the threat environment is benign until 1950 with the victory of the Chinese Communists in the civil war. Communist parties in Laos and in Cambodia begin to gain power in both countries. Due to the internal policies of the VNQDD a communist insurrection campaign begins to occur along the borders with all three states, but originally localised to the Chinese border.

In the 1950's there is a deployment to Korea, an initial intervention in Laos and growing concern with the internal political turmoil of Cambodia. In the 1960's there is a second intervention in Laos and conflict with the Chinese volunteers. Cambodia degenerates into a civil war by the late 1960's and the Vietnamese are forced to intervene to secure their borders and to prevent continued ethnic cleansing from occuring.

The PRC invades Vietnam to attempt to convince their leaders to withdraw from their occupation of Cambodia. A localised regional conflict occurs for several months until all parties are able to hammer out an agreement.

So noting this, here are my thoughts:

Army

In OTL the North Vietnamese Army had an approximate strength of approximately 500,000 to 700,000 soldiers and the Army of the Republic of Vietnam approximately 450,000 to 700,000 soldiers at their peak. In my TL the Army will be the dominant service on weight of numbers alone and their significance as the backbone of the nation. Now taking into consideration the executive summary outlined about how large should the Army be and how should it be structured?

For those that are interested I have divided Vietnam into five corps on rough geographic lines. The main threat is with the Chinese border and the first corps has a large concentration of soldiers watching the border. But also due to the instability in Laos and Cambodia there is a second concentration of soldiers in three Corps to respond if required.

Based on the threat and the size of the military I feel that conscription is required, which would be of two years duration for the Army and three for the Navy and Air Force respectively. Due to the size of the prospective military how large are the training establishments needed to maintain the force level and how can a logistical chain be created to support same a military of this size? Do you have any parallels to draw from.

Air Force

Initial Chief of Air Force General Trinh former commander of the French Air Force during the Italian campaign. I think that is a good starting point as the battle in Italy emphasised a tactical air force approach and one that I think would be appropriate for my RVAF.

Noting my threat environment how large should the Air Force be? Again as a reference the VNAF had a strength of 63,000 and the VPAF of 30,000.

My initial thoughts for airframes are Ki - 43 Hayabusas, which are replaced by new build F-4u Corsairs in the late 1940's and the maintenance of a single squadron of A-26 Invaders or possibly two.

The Air Force does not receive Jet fighters until the second generation and during the first conflict as part of SEATO receives a fighter squadron from the RAAF or USAF to protect their territorial air space. I was considering a deployment of F-104 Starfighters or F-102's for this role. When the RVAF obtains jet fighters my thoughts were Drakens or the Mirage III to counteract the Mig 19 and 21 threat from the Chinese. As for the Invader replacement, I thought the Canberra but happy for other suggestions.

Transport aircraft C-47 until mid 1960's then replaced with the Caribou and C-130. Not sure if the Army or Air Force will operate rotary winged aircraft... happy for thoughts here.

Navy

Again the OTL South Vietnamese Navy and the Vietnamese People's Navy were equivalent in size of 42,000 sailors.

So initial Chief of Navy is an American officer on loan Captain Arleigh Burke, USN. Now he is faced with integration problems from the Japanese ships and sailors with the Vietnamese military and smugglers that comprise the Navy. This will also be the smallest of the three services.

Initial ships two and eventually three Etorofu class escort ships that were in harbour at the end of hostilities with the Empire of Japan. This is combined with patrol junks for patrolling Vietnamese territorial seas from smugglers etc. My initial thoughts are having a sole base in Da Nang and smaller bases in Hai Phong and Cam Ranh bay. The base at Da Nang is centrally located to the Paracels and Spratley islands in case of dispute and provides the distance required to prevent a first strike destroying the majority of the Vietnamese Naval capability.

So the Etorofu class are replaced by 6 Van Spejik class frigates in the 1960's and a submarine arm is also formed. Also at this stage I think replenishment ships would be appropriate to develop a greater blue water capability. Although I think three type 206 submarines would be appropriate, three Barbell class would provide a greater capability for the Navy. However, the question would be would it be a jump or step too far for a still maturing Navy.

Minor war vessels - minehunters located at Da Nang and two apiece at Haiphong and Cam Ranh Bay. There are also patrol boats to replace the junks located at each base. There is also a limited emphasis on riverine warfare which in TTL is centred on the Mekong and the Cambodian border.

The other point is I still intend to keep the Vietnamese Marines in TTL, but my thoughts would be to have a smaller Corps and improve them qualitatively on par with Royal Marine Commandos. So, between 6-8 battalions and their responsibilities would include riverine and amphibious warfare and acting as the country's strategic reserve with the Army's Paratroopers.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Bumped for ideas.

 

[DD951]

Some of the ideas could be a little ambitious given what the Vietnamese economy could be like, particularly with the AF & navy procurement.

With the air force, basic idea seems ok if a little slow on getting jets (as a comparison, South Korea got its first jets, F-86s in 1955 & Thailand in 1956 with the F-84,) but would they be able to afford Mirages or Drakens on their own, or if they're relying on someone's military assistance programs for gear, some of those could be out for political reasons- it's not like the US government is going to be that eager to buy non-American planes to give to allied powers, frex. Should probably see about getting some maritime patrol aircraft as well at some point.

Something else to consider, is that right at the end of World War II, the US junked a lot of fairly modern combat aircraft, some that were almost new, rather than bother shipping them home, by dumping them at sea, burning them, or selling them to local scrap dealers- a few countries were able to get ahold of some at scrap value- might be worth the nascent Vietnamese AF looking into.

With helicopters, it seems the general practice is to give battlefield attack & transport to the army, while AF helicopter inventories typically consist of a few SAR & VIP transport birds

With the navy, buying six new, modern frigates in the late 1960s seems ambitious, considering that a very big chunk of the not just the South Korean & Taiwanese Navies, but also those of some NATO members such as Spain, Greece, & Turkey consisted of US WW2 surplus well into the 1980s.

An approach that might be more consistent with the procurement of other navies in a similar historical position (such as South Korea) would be starting with the ex-IJN prizes, then picking up a few WW2 surplus small vessels (subchasers, frigates, minesweepers, PT boats, small auxiliaries such as tugs & small cargo vessels, & landing craft) that ought to be available for cheap in the late 1940s & early 1950s. Late 1950s & early 1960s, some more of those, some fast attack craft & if the budget permits, and perhaps a couple ex-US destroyers through a military assistance program. Late 1960s & early 1970s, possibly pick up a few newer ex-US destroyers (FRAM Sumners & Gearings) to replace some of the older ships, as well as newer patrol craft & missile boats, while laying the groundwork to procure modern frigates later in the decade.

A submarine program could take a lot of money to get going- if the goal is to get a submarine force going by the late 1960s, should probably start by picking up a surplus boat or two, such as an ex-USN fleet snorkel, earlier in the decade for training & familiarization, while starting to look for newer submarines- T206 would be cheaper & better suited for littoral work, while an updated Barbel would be more expensive, but more suitable for blue-water ops. If those are too expensive in the mid-to-late 60s, they could try picking up some GUPPY boats for cheap when the USN starts unloading them in the late 60s & early 70s to tide them over for a few decades.

Also, those PAVN & ARVN figures are for forces at a fairly high state of mobilization due to an ongoing war & a lot of support from foreign allies- would the Vietnamese economy be able to support a 1-1.5 million man active army under normal peacetime conditions? (The present day South Korean Army is a little over a half-million active strength) Might be worth taking a look at the sizes of other armies with a similar strategic situation & trying to base the standing force off what they have, adjusted for population & economic conditions.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

With the air force, basic idea seems ok if a little slow on getting jets (as a comparison, South Korea got its first jets, F-86s in 1955 & Thailand in 1956 with the F-84,) but would they be able to afford Mirages or Drakens on their own, or if they're relying on someone's military assistance programs for gear, some of those could be out for political reasons- it's not like the US government is going to be that eager to buy non-American planes to give to allied powers, frex. Should probably see about getting some maritime patrol aircraft as well at some point

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The issue of purchasing through the military assistance program is one that I had not considered. Noting the sheer expense of operating fast jets I am inclined to push the purchase of jet fighters further right if possible. So it may be F-5A Tigers as per OTL, which would be a reasonable purchase for my embryonic Air Force. I thought about the MPAs after I had posted, I was thinking Neptunes perhaps or even Japanese amphibians.

With the navy, buying six new, modern frigates in the late 1960s seems ambitious, considering that a very big chunk of the not just the South Korean & Taiwanese Navies, but also those of some NATO members such as Spain, Greece, & Turkey consisted of US WW2 surplus well into the 1980s.

Late 1950s & early 1960s, some more of those, some fast attack craft & if the budget permits, and perhaps a couple ex-US destroyers through a military assistance program. Late 1960s & early 1970s, possibly pick up a few newer ex-US destroyers (FRAM Sumners & Gearings) to replace some of the older ships, as well as newer patrol craft & missile boats, while laying the groundwork to procure modern frigates later in the decade.

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My initial thought was the Vietnamese Navy would inherit two Japanese destroyers which would be upgraded ala the Sumners and Gearings class destroyers. Although my thoughts were operating two Destroyers may be a tad ambitious in the late 1940's. Although happy to discuss further, fast attack craft I am ambivalent on simply due to the requirement to enforce their EEZ out to the Paracel and Spratley islands.

A submarine program could take a lot of money to get going- if the goal is to get a submarine force going by the late 1960s, should probably start by picking up a surplus boat or two, such as an ex-USN fleet snorkel, earlier in the decade for training & familiarization, while starting to look for newer submarines- T206 would be cheaper & better suited for littoral work, while an updated Barbel would be more expensive, but more suitable for blue-water ops. If those are too expensive in the mid-to-late 60s, they could try picking up some GUPPY boats for cheap when the USN starts unloading them in the late 60s & early 70s to tide them over for a few decades

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That's a good idea and I think obtaining one or two fleet submarines may be a good idea. If you have any POD that I can use, please suggest them. The Type 206 I think would be appropriate for the situation the Vietnamese face with a submarine force focused on the South China Sea.

Also, those PAVN & ARVN figures are for forces at a fairly high state of mobilization due to an ongoing war & a lot of support from foreign allies- would the Vietnamese economy be able to support a 1-1.5 million man active army under normal peacetime conditions? (The present day South Korean Army is a little over a half-million active strength) Might be worth taking a look at the sizes of other armies with a similar strategic situation & trying to base the standing force off what they have, adjusted for population & economic conditions.

I didn't phrase that well I would say the complete armed forces of Vietnam would total between 300,000 - 400,000 not counting reserves. This seems to be a sustainable number, broken up to 250,000 for the Army and 50,000 apiece for the Air Force and Navy.

It means I will have to do more research, but that's part of the fun of drafting a TL.

 

[DD951]

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The issue of purchasing through the military assistance program is one that I had not considered. Noting the sheer expense of operating fast jets I am inclined to push the purchase of jet fighters further right if possible. So it may be F-5A Tigers as per OTL, which would be a reasonable purchase for my embryonic Air Force. I thought about the MPAs after I had posted, I was thinking Neptunes perhaps or even Japanese amphibians.

That would probably be a reasonable enough course for jets, as the F-5 was designed to be a cheap fast jet on a budget for smaller air forces- possibly start with some surplus F-84s or -86s & T-33s in the late 50s or early 60s through the Military Assistance Program to get the transition going, an F-5A order in the mid 60s, some F-5Es a few years later when they become available, & hopefully by the mid-late 70s, the economy will have improved enough to allow for something like a first-line jet, such as an F-16 order in the early 80s.

As for MPAs, Neptunes would be a reasonable choice when they become available in the mid-50s; before that, perhaps some Catalinas for that & SAR, as spares would quickly become a serious problem for ex-Japanese aircraft.

My initial thought was the Vietnamese Navy would inherit two Japanese destroyers which would be upgraded ala the Sumners and Gearings class destroyers. Although my thoughts were operating two Destroyers may be a tad ambitious in the late 1940's. Although happy to discuss further, fast attack craft I am ambivalent on simply due to the requirement to enforce their EEZ out to the Paracel and Spratley islands.

Not sure if ex-Japanese destroyers have the space & weight for that sort of modernization or not, as they tended to be pretty tight designs, & the only one to be operated post-war, ex-Yukikaze by the Taiwanese, was rearmed with 3 open-mount 5"/38s, a new FCS, a few 40 mm AA guns, & WW2 US-type depth charge launchers, & hedgehogs. Not sure if they could put a early-50s type destroyer sonar on the hull or not- if you could get hold of a pre-1970 Jane's, it might have some more info with what they did with it.

As far as fast attack craft, I was seeing them as primarily useful for littoral work up near the border with China (lot of islands there) & as well as down by Cambodia if they go communist in order to protect against infiltration & raids, & up there, Chinese waters are about 100 miles away.

That's a good idea and I think obtaining one or two fleet submarines may be a good idea. If you have any POD that I can use, please suggest them. The Type 206 I think would be appropriate for the situation the Vietnamese face with a submarine force focused on the South China Sea.

During the 1950s & 1960s, the US was flogging off fleet boats, both unmodernized & snorkel conversions in small batches to quite a few allies, so grabbing one or two shouldn't be that much of a problem.

The 206 is kind of small & short-ranged though, with a paper figure of 4,500 nm @ 4 knots, so endurance farther out could be an issue- that submarine was designed for work in the Baltic. Also, the 206 uses a non-magnetic steel hull, which could be considered a restricted technology by the Germans. It might be of interest that South Korea larger, longer-ranged subs, a Type 209 variant & the Type 214, while OTL Vietnam is ordering 6 Improved Kilo-class boats from Russia, & Taiwan has 2 GUPPY conversions & 2 Dutch-built Barbel knock-offs (they wanted 4 more, & when that fell through, tried to get some Scorpenes, but both proposals failed because they can't find anyone to build them due to PRC political pressure)

I didn't phrase that well I would say the complete armed forces of Vietnam would total between 300,000 - 400,000 not counting reserves. This seems to be a sustainable number, broken up to 250,000 for the Army and 50,000 apiece for the Air Force and Navy.

It means I will have to do more research, but that's part of the fun of drafting a TL.

That sounds more reasonable, which would place it between Taiwan & South Korea in force size, closer to South Korea, though a few thousand more in each service would probably be better if economically feasible.

 

[DoomBunny]

I think a good idea for the airforce would be lots of WW2 surplus aircraft. They're likely to be sold off cheap, there are some well suited to providing ground support in the Vietnamese terrain and they don't require too much investment in landing strips. You already have the F4U and A26, but there's likely some other useful planes around. Some Hellcats would be useful, and the B25 G/H would be good for naval work or for strafing runs.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

I think a good idea for the airforce would be lots of WW2 surplus aircraft. They're likely to be sold off cheap, there are some well suited to providing ground support in the Vietnamese terrain and they don't require too much investment in landing strips. You already have the F4U and A26, but there's likely some other useful planes around. Some Hellcats would be useful, and the B25 G/H would be good for naval work or for strafing runs.

I think the key consideration for me when looking at my theoretical Vietnamese Air Force is also addressing the issues of logistics and maintenance within a constrained budgetary environment. This is an Air Force that is being created from scratch, with a potential recruiting pool of airmen with a primary school education at best. So I am focusing on creating the infrastructure, which includes a sufficient amount of airlift capability which is a must in an environment where the road / rail network is poor... at least to begin with.

As for the patrol forces they will operate Junks until being replaced by Motor torpedo boats in the 1950's. Possibly considering either constructing locally to develop shipbuilding as an industry... The former RN model Fairmile D MTB seems about right, but what about the USN PT Boat. I have heard the fuel economy for the PT Boat was dreadful however.

 

[DD951]

(snip) As for the patrol forces they will operate Junks until being replaced by Motor torpedo boats in the 1950's. Possibly considering either constructing locally to develop shipbuilding as an industry... The former RN model Fairmile D MTB seems about right, but what about the USN PT Boat. I have heard the fuel economy for the PT Boat was dreadful however.

Well, there'd be plenty of PT boats available for really cheap right at the end of WW2- the USN simply destroyed most of their inventory in place by running them onto a beach, stripping out anything useful, & burning the huls, rather than hauling them home- some 121 were burned on Samar alone. And they were very thirsty- the hull was optimized for high speed, & they were powered by 3 airplane engines (a 1920s-design Packard V-12 converted into a marine engine for speedboats).

However, the Fairmile D uses 4 of the same motors, so it's not like they're exactly going to be easy on the gas bill either. Although they do seem to have notably longer range, it might be because the hull form & props are optimized for range rather than high speed. There were also a lot fewer of them built.

Moving on to the 1950s, when it's time to get some new stuff, the Norwegians have some designs that could be useful.