Vietnam Escalates as much as Korea

The United States fought wars in Korea and Vietnam to contain communism. In Korea, it went full scale right away, and invaded the North. Americans and Chinese actually fought and killed each other directly, no proxies necessary. In Vietnam, escalation was slow and steady, and it never invaded the North. What would have had to change for the US to go all out right away, or reach that point eventually, in Vietnam? How much more bloody would the conflict have gotten? Would China get involved directly? Would the result change? What would have been the repercussions?
 
There were three factors that prevented this scenario

One: the USA never invade North Vietnam
Two: China got the Atomic Bomb
Three: Mao launch the cultural revolution what turn China into chaos for several years.

In TL 2001: A Space-time Odyssey i play with these factors

Mao died during cultural revolution and Marshal Lin Biao become new leader of China.
After he stabilize the situation in China, he focus on US activity south of China: Vietnam
with massive build up of Chinese troops along North Vietnam Border in case the US invade North Vietnam.
what makes the Vietnamese nervous, out of fear that could be occupied by China again
(North Vietnam was once province of Chinese Empire)
begin of "The Chinese Nightmare" in US politic, resulting in early redraw of US troops from South Vietnam.
because the Vietcong got not support of North Vietnam army, who guarded the border to China
This "nightmare" ended with visit of Richard Nixon to China in 1972.
 
There were three factors that prevented this scenario

One: the USA never invade North Vietnam
Two: China got the Atomic Bomb
Three: Mao launch the cultural revolution what turn China into chaos for several years.

1) But why didn't they, that is the question.
2) Good reason, but the war had already gone on a few years before that. There was a window between the start of the conflict and China detonating the nuke.
3) Wouldn't that have made the USA more inclined to invade, because China is too busy to care?

I don't understand this well, and these are my questions. Not trying to criticize, just want to understand it better. Thanks for posting.
 
Didn't the Chinese and Soviets come to blows during the late 1960s so China had no desire to piss off the United States at the same time it was exchanging fire with the Soviets.
 
If US troops were to invade the North, then they would destroy the main base of the Communists and force them to fight on the defensive, thus give the US an advantage. With out a safehaven, VC +NVA units in the South and other nations wither due to lack of supplies. Presumabely the PRC would intervene to save the now decimated NVA. What would likely occur is a parrallell of Korea in which the PRC and USA do most of the fighting. Eventually the PRC and USA agree to a peace which actually holds because the PRC will inform the NVA that they will have to go it alone if they unilaterally revoke the peace agreement.
 
If US troops were to invade the North, then they would destroy the main base of the Communists and force them to fight on the defensive, thus give the US an advantage. With out a safehaven, VC +NVA units in the South and other nations wither due to lack of supplies. Presumabely the PRC would intervene to save the now decimated NVA. What would likely occur is a parrallell of Korea in which the PRC and USA do most of the fighting. Eventually the PRC and USA agree to a peace which actually holds because the PRC will inform the NVA that they will have to go it alone if they unilaterally revoke the peace agreement.

When does this occur? Sino-Soviet conflict is in 1969, so if it's around that time, there's almost no chance that the PRC is intervening on behalf of Vietnam.
 
This is what happened in the althistory novel "Children of Apollo".

After the stalemate in the Vietnam War the Nixon Admin. invaded and occupied Saudi Arabia after the Saudi led OPEC embargo in 1973 IIRC.

People were completely unconcerned about Watergate then.

Nixon served out his second term and was replaced by a victorious Ronald Reagan in the 1976 election

George H.W. Bush became Secretary of State under Reagan and helped negotiate the Soviet settlement with the U.S. after the Third World War in 1984.
 
If US troops were to invade the North, then they would destroy the main base of the Communists and force them to fight on the defensive, thus give the US an advantage. With out a safehaven, VC +NVA units in the South and other nations wither due to lack of supplies. Presumabely the PRC would intervene to save the now decimated NVA. What would likely occur is a parrallell of Korea in which the PRC and USA do most of the fighting. Eventually the PRC and USA agree to a peace which actually holds because the PRC will inform the NVA that they will have to go it alone if they unilaterally revoke the peace agreement.

But why didn't they? That is the question. It seems like a good idea, at least in hindsight. What do I not know?
 
In my TL, the Tales of the Shining Pearl, I had the US and the Western Bloc go utter ape on crushing communism because of a friendly China and USSR (Mao dies earlier with the reformist but diplomatically aggressive leaders in thr 1960s in my TL), and go totally paranoid when Indonesia falls to communism in 1965 in my TL (GS30 Movement), and they intensify their efforts greater than OTL due to a repeated Red Scare. The war evolves into a stalemate at the 18th parallel in my TL (meaning they invade North Vietnam due to South Vietnamese demands since OTL was at the 17th parallel). Even with open Chinese support, the South Vietnamese don't crumble. But the US can't do it alone in my TL: Since the basic premise is first, a rich Philippines in my TL, it provides great support to the US, leading (inadvertently) to a wealthier and unified West (which can do more to stop Indochina from going Red), and the stalemate is done by 1968, leading to a Korea-like division by 1969.

Because the West escalates their efforts much more in my TL, they also successfully protect Laos and Cambodia from communism.

(My TL's on the signature: The World Wank :) )
 
One of the reasons the US didn't escalate Vietnam was BECAUSE of Korea, where escalation led to Chinese intervention, and ultimately a return to the status quo ante bellum.

Another is, as mentioned, the Chinese Bomb.

A third is that Korea was a UN operation with wide international support. Vietnam was very much NOT.

Another reason should have been (but probably wasn't :( ) that Ho was a legitimately popular nationalist leader who was middling competent. Unlike any of the South Vietnamese leaders, and much better than Kim.
 
One of the reasons the US didn't escalate Vietnam was BECAUSE of Korea, where escalation led to Chinese intervention, and ultimately a return to the status quo ante bellum.

Another is, as mentioned, the Chinese Bomb.

A third is that Korea was a UN operation with wide international support. Vietnam was very much NOT.

Another reason should have been (but probably wasn't :( ) that Ho was a legitimately popular nationalist leader who was middling competent. Unlike any of the South Vietnamese leaders, and much better than Kim.

Why was there less support for Vietnam then Korea? Was it because of the fact that it was a former colony, everyone remembered the Korean conflict and didn't want a repeat, or some other reason?
 
Why was there less support for Vietnam then Korea? Was it because of the fact that it was a former colony, everyone remembered the Korean conflict and didn't want a repeat, or some other reason?

One, because Korea is in close proximity to Japan, another ally of USA. You can say that Vietnam is near Philippines, but the distance is greater (and Philippines army is...)

Two, President Ho Chi Minh made it very clear (to French journalists) that the chance for Vietnam becoming a satellite state of China is basically zero

Three, it is likely that China remember Korean war, they don't want to repeat it

Four, you are talking about Vietnam. As a Vietnamese, trust me, we are effing crazy when fighting against invaders, especially when they are Chinese

Five, Sino-Soviet split. Even though HCM favored Soviet, he still call for 2 nations/parties to reconcile (something China did NOT like)

Hope it can help
 

CalBear

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But why didn't they? That is the question. It seems like a good idea, at least in hindsight. What do I not know?

Because the U.S. wasn't fully engaged.

The U.S. never expected to actually get into a full out war. By the time it had there was already too much political opposition to expand into the North.

Because the U.S. completely misunderstood the relationship between Vietnam and the PRC (something that most Americans STILL don't get).

The Vietnamese and Chinese have a mutual cultural hatred that goes back before the invention of paper. The PRC didn't support Hanoi out of the goodness of its heart. It was paid, and in huge amounts of materials and equipment, by the Soviets to allow the transshipment of materials across China into Vietnam. If the U.S. had invaded the North and proclaimed in advance that all U.S. forces would halt 100km from the border with the PRC the folks in Beijing would have publicly wrung their hands and privately laughed their ass off.

Because the U.S. at the time utterly misunderstood the reason the PRC intervened in Korea.

Mao assumed that the U.S. wasn't going to stop at the Yalu (and with some justification, MacArthur would have loved to be the guy who "saved" China). They warned the U.S. twice not to break the 100 km limit from the PRC frontier. MacArthur ignored them. As a result the war lasted an additional 2.5 years.
 
Because the U.S. wasn't fully engaged.

The U.S. never expected to actually get into a full out war. By the time it had there was already too much political opposition to expand into the North.

Because the U.S. completely misunderstood the relationship between Vietnam and the PRC (something that most Americans STILL don't get).

The Vietnamese and Chinese have a mutual cultural hatred that goes back before the invention of paper. The PRC didn't support Hanoi out of the goodness of its heart. It was paid, and in huge amounts of materials and equipment, by the Soviets to allow the transshipment of materials across China into Vietnam. If the U.S. had invaded the North and proclaimed in advance that all U.S. forces would halt 100km from the border with the PRC the folks in Beijing would have publicly wrung their hands and privately laughed their ass off.

Because the U.S. at the time utterly misunderstood the reason the PRC intervened in Korea.

Mao assumed that the U.S. wasn't going to stop at the Yalu (and with some justification, MacArthur would have loved to be the guy who "saved" China). They warned the U.S. twice not to break the 100 km limit from the PRC frontier. MacArthur ignored them. As a result the war lasted an additional 2.5 years.


I'm not sure about the last part (I hear it first time anyway), but the rest is basically the truth. I'd say that Vietnam hates China because Chinese invaded her... (I lost count). And China hates (or dislikes) Vietnam because they only success a few time when trying to colonize Vietnam
 
The problem is the U.S wasn't that wrong to assume China couldn't have intervened, the DRV being complete anti-Chinese nationalists is a myth. The Sino-Soviet was tricky for North Vietnam because it had to play both sides, where the only problem was with China who sabotaged Soviet aid and where a pain in the ass to work with.
 
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