Victorian Age European colonization with early German and Italian unifications

Because this is Eurofed, he basically writes up a scenario about large empries and just wants everyone to agree with him no matter plausible or not.

That may be true perhaps, but what really struck me is having Russia, Germany, and Italy all sticking together. I'm not sure why such an alliance would or could last, and since this isn't a timeline thread, I'm going to ask the questions why and how. I doubt an (irrational) hatred of France and the UK (Two countries that always get the short end of the stick in the OP's usual threads) would be enough to get those three to stick together through thick and thin.
 

Typo

Banned
That may be true perhaps, but what really struck me is having Russia, Germany, and Italy all sticking together. I'm not sure why such an alliance would or could last, and since this isn't a timeline thread, I'm going to ask the questions why and how. I doubt an (irrational) hatred of France and the UK (Two countries that always get the short end of the stick in the OP's usual threads) would be enough to get those three to stick together through thick and thin.
Because Eurofed wants them to essentially since he has this thing about not liking France and the UK vis verse Germany and Italy, of course this scenario is going to end up inevitably in some sort of European confederation/federation with probably a colonial empire probably dominated by Germany because that's pretty much where all his scenarios go to.
 
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Lusitania

Donor
Several issues with the early unification of Gernamy and Italy.

The unification of Italy also meant the loss of territory for Austria as it was forced to cede large portion of its Italian Speaking lands to the new nation of Italy. So how is this handled.

Secondly is Russia, you cannot saw that Germany unified and was allied with Russia, that is not going to happen. Austria and Russia worked against Prussia in its attempt to sieze Saxony. Russia would not be very happy to see this huge country at its door step and would work hard both diplomatically and militarily to counter it.

What are you going to do with the non German's of the united Germany, the Hungarians, Croations, Chez and Poles how do they fit into it.

How did the Hapsburgs who had dominated the Germanies for centuries all of a sudden give up their objective to a united Germany. They were the reason it did not happen earlier.

What of the Ottoman Empire to the south?

As you can see all of these issues would dominate a earlier united Germany which would distract and dominate it for years to come.

Lastly you would need a Bismark type fellow for Germany to proceed with Colonies since he was instrumental with Germany carving out its own colonial empire.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Thus the New Imperialism might never come into fashion at all (and it was a fashion, losing money in most places) and you'll see a much more corporate orientated colonialism, with an emphasis on access to China and the Ottomans.

It's possible that Germany and/or Italy might not be interested in colonies at all. Like Nugax said, to some degree the imperialism of the late 19th century was a fad, with countries grabbing economically unprofitable territory left and right just to say that they had it and that other countries didn't. That might not happen in a different scenario.

Also,it could be possible a split of China and maybe colonization also of Japan...

However, in the end the Great European War will explode the same soon or later when the imperialism race was closed.

OK, this certainly seems an interesting thread of thought. So let's assume the Scramble for Africa is delayed and donwnplayed. Where else the imperialistic ambitions of the great powers would refocus ? I do not deem realistic that the great powers would simply turn out less imperialistic than OTL. As several posters suggest, China seems like one fo the most obvious targets. What would mean such an increased European penetration ? Accelerated collapse of the imperial regime ? A de facto partition of China ? Or paradoxically added drive to its modernization ? Is colonization of Japan (and Korea) truly going to happen (pre-industrial Japan was not that valuable) ?

What is meant by "more corporate-oriented" colonialism ? A revival of something like the EIC of yore (but the Sepoy Rebellion had shown the drawbacks of such a method) ? Or more like modern neo-imperialism ?

Which other valuable targets would be ? South East Asia seems to be one, although in my TL Britain grabbed the DEI after the Napoleonic Wars. What else ? I'm not really convinced that Africa would be entirely left fallow, since there were several areas with valuable agricultural and mineral resources. South Africa is one obvious example, even if it was a British playground. North Africa, I assumed, would end be colonized anyway, one way or another, for various reasons. Perhaps Congo ?

Moreover, in my TL South America (apart from Brazil) ends up absorbed the the USA, and so it is less accessible than OTL to European trade. Would not this be a sufficient motivation to increase European colonization elsewhere ?

One unusual type of super-German colonialism was in the "Decades of Darkness" timeline, where a huge federal Germany forms that actually includes the Netherlands. This gives the super-Grossdeutchland colonies in Indonesia, and from there it becomes a major colonial power in Southeast Asia, while also getting some colonies in Africa.

Well, in my TL Britain grabs Indonesia after the Napoleonic wars, but a German-Dutch union is certainly a feasible butterfly to explore, since the two nations are quite cozy.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Germany or Italy can pull an US on some weaker colonial power like Spain or Portugal to rob it of its colonies.

I had indeed thought of Germany and Italy partitioning the Portoguese colonial empire like Germany and Britain planned to do IOTL. The Spanish colonial empire ends up annexed by the USA in my TL.
 
Well, in my TL Britain grabs Indonesia after the Napoleonic wars, but a German-Dutch union is certainly a feasible butterfly to explore, since the two nations are quite cozy.

What? Why? They effectively had indonesia in the OTL, British capital become so overwelmingly ascendent there that they didn't need or want to take more than the most vital strategic bit - far better to let the Dutch have the cost in men and money of actually running the place.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Without Bismark and the desire for German glory there would not of been any Scramble for Africa. With your scenario of early unification of "ALL" german speaking countries including Austria with its huge bagage of trouble will make Germany's desire for colonial Empire disapear. Ignore that at own peril.

Now if Austria is left out of the equation then we could have something but not with Austria. That would put Germany on direct path to war with Russia and Ottoman Empire over the fate of the Balkans.

You have not stated if a unified Italy would include the Hapsburg areas, if so kiss any Italian colonial empire good bye because that is where a huge portion of Italian weath and industry reside.
 

Lusitania

Donor
:confused:

When Russia said jump, Prussia said how high. Prussia during and after the fifth coalition was to Russia what we in Britain are to America these days.

So any unified Germany including Austria would be a huge monstrocity that would have put all other major economic and military powers on edge. Russia would not of been nice they would of viewed them as an adversary and even potential enemy. An early unification would more likely than not led to an earlier Great War.

Even Great Britain would of been weary of this country and its actions and diplomacy would of reacted accordingly. Especially if its started trying to match the mighty British Navy for sprumecy of the seas.
 
So any unified Germany including Austria would be a huge monstrocity that would have put all other major economic and military powers on edge. Russia would not of been nice they would of viewed them as an adversary and even potential enemy. An early unification would more likely than not led to an earlier Great War.

Even Great Britain would of been weary of this country and its actions and diplomacy would of reacted accordingly. Especially if its started trying to match the mighty British Navy for sprumecy of the seas.

Pretty much. Notice how much closer the UK got to France after the unification of Germany, and that was only the über-Prussian Kleindeutschland. Now imagine if it were Grossdeutschland.
 
Pretty much. Notice how much closer the UK got to France after the unification of Germany, and that was only the über-Prussian Kleindeutschland. Now imagine if it were Grossdeutschland.

Close enough that in 1900 British political cartoonists could suggest in all seriousness that the French and the Germans were teaming up and scheming against us. We drew close to France only after the German fleet started its splurge.
 
I guess such a huge shift in politics would make the TL's germany more isolated then OTL. their was a tl made by Beer where Grossduechsland was able to fight of Great britain and then ally with France in the Great war between GreatBritain, Russia, Italy, and the ottoman empire.
(which I thought was pretty pluasible)

Edit: What were Frances military capabilities after the Napoleonic wars?
 
I guess such a huge shift in politics would make the TL's germany more isolated then OTL. their was a tl made by Beer where Grossduechsland was able to fight of Great britain and then ally with France in the Great war between GreatBritain, Russia, Italy, and the ottoman empire.
(which I thought was pretty pluasible)

Edit: What were Frances military capabilities after the Napoleonic wars?

Still pretty powerful, though the Grande Armee changed French demographics that the Germans outstripped them in population. What is known is that the Second French Empire wasn't prepared to fight Prussia in 1870.
 

Beer

Banned
I guess such a huge shift in politics would make the TL's germany more isolated then OTL. their was a tl made by Beer where Grossduechsland was able to fight of Great britain and then ally with France in the Great war between GreatBritain, Russia, Italy, and the ottoman empire.
(which I thought was pretty pluasible)
Hi! There is a TL made by Beer! My TL is alive and well, I update as often as I can. Have a look, if you like and please comment. :D:)
Btw: Thanks Sailor for your kind words! I always try to get the TL as sound as possible.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Where is this TL?

I was mostly fishing for ideas about the pattern of European colonization in USAO, which features the unification of Italy and Grossdeutchsland in the early 1830s. The Scramble for Africa part of the TL part has been written by now.
 
I was mostly fishing for ideas about the pattern of European colonization in USAO, which features the unification of Italy and Grossdeutchsland in the early 1830s. The Scramble for Africa part of the TL part has been written by now.

What is it called, and where is it. Forgive me if i do not know.
 
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